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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 45646 times)

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Sorry DL, it is you who do not know what you are talking about. As for me personally, I absolutely, completely and 100% agree, and submit too and with all the above teachings (except #9 Satis Cognitum, see below), and would have bolded the same text if I would have posted them.

Not sure where you got #9 Satis Cognitum from, that is a bad quote as it does appear that way in any version of Satis Cognitum that I can find  - -did you get it from the Dimonds? They've always been notorious for purposely misquoting so as to suit their narrative.

I can only find this for #9: "The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium."
Your quote literally says the same thing as their quote. It doesn't mean anything different simply because they use "banished" instead of "alien". Both terms mean outside, foreign, not a part of. The fact that you're now sinking to criticizing a divergence in translation of both shows that you are trying to avoid the clear message: heretics are outside of the Church. They are not Catholics.

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As for #3 Satis Cognitum, the pope(s) fully believes that he teaches the faith of Rome.
The so-called Pope's personal belief that he teaches the faith of Rome still doesn't change the objective fact of his heresies and apostasy. You're either less intelligent than you make yourself out to be, or, you know this and are of such a bad will that you don't care because it does not fit your heresy that heretics are part of the Church.

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Heretics are already considered bad-willed because of their heresy. If you're stretching "material heresy" beyond merely error on the part of an otherwise good-willed Catholic, then you are just wrong.

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Pope Innocent IV, First Council of Lyons, 1245:
“The civil law declares that those are to be regarded as heretics, and ought to be subject to the sentences issued against them, who even on slight evidence are found to have strayed from the judgment and path of the Catholic religion.”
Of course ALL those who who preach contrary to Catholic doctrine, regardless of who is doing the preaching are absolutely and certainly to be regarded as heretics - no sense arguing that point further since we all agree with this truth. Ok?

The issue is not who is a heretic because presumably, we all agree the that all of the conciliar popes were all heretics, including the current pope, pope Francis.



Online Stubborn

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Your quote literally says the same thing as their quote. It doesn't mean anything different simply because they use "banished" instead of "alien". Both terms mean outside, foreign, not a part of. The fact that you're now sinking to criticizing a divergence in translation of both shows that you are trying to avoid the clear message: heretics are outside of the Church. They are not Catholics.
Where did you get that quote? That's the question. 


Of course ALL those who who preach contrary to Catholic doctrine, regardless of who is doing the preaching are absolutely and certainly to be regarded as heretics - no sense arguing that point further since we all agree with this truth. Ok?

The issue is not who is a heretic because presumably, we all agree the that all of the conciliar popes were all heretics, including the current pope, pope Francis.
Yes, so tell me then, if Francis is a heretic, how can he hold ANY office IN the Church if he is outside the body?
How can he COMMAND in the Church if he is outside of it? (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum)

Where did you get that quote? That's the question. 
From MHFM, I'm drawing from the links I provided earlier in the thread. Again, just because they use a different translation (or even maybe translated it themselves) does not change the fact that they say the same exact thing.

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The so-called Pope's personal belief that he teaches the faith of Rome still doesn't change the objective fact of his heresies and apostasy. You're either less intelligent than you make yourself out to be, or, you know this and are of such a bad will that you don't care because it does not fit your heresy that heretics are part of the Church.
You are wrong on both accounts. I will attempt to explain....

My presumption is that since you quoted Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), you agree that:
Heresy is a mortal sin. 

We know that all mortal sin severs from the Church, i.e adultery, murder, pride, and so on - but as PPXII said, due to it's nature, none sever like the mortal sin of heresy, (and apostacy and schism). Pope Pius XII is talking about the nature of the sin. Obviously you will agree the nature of the sin of heresy makes this sin the worst or among the worst.

The Church always calls upon all of her children to confess their mortal sins, do penance and amend their life.

For the Catholic who has fallen into mortal sin, (in this case the mortal sin of heresy), like all Catholics, he can receive the Sacrament of Penance and his mortal sin of heresy will be forgiven. Certainly the Catholic who fell into the mortal sin of heresy is in a much more serious spiritual condition than the Catholic who is in the state of lesser mortal sin, but neither is in the woeful condition of those who are outside the Church for the simple fact that one who is not a Catholic cannot receive the Sacraments.

I completely realize this truth is contrary to what sedes think, and in order to maintain your deep seated belief, you will need to deny the above truth - so let's hear it.

edit to add....I will be back later, real life is calling.