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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 45659 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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:sleep:

I have theological opinions like everyone else, and I've never claimed that every act of the Magisterium is inerrant or infallible, and yet on the question of EENS I deny that BoD/BoB have every been definitively taught by the Magisterium.

What I'm saying is pretty straightforward, that the Holy Catholic Church cannot transform into a brand new religion, with a novel theological system rooted in subjectivism and Modernist thinking and cannot adopt for its public worship a Rite of Mass that is doubtfully valid and certainly harmful to souls.  In short, if the Church were capable of transforming into an entity from which Catholics feel bound in conscience to separate because it had become so corrupt in its doctrine and public worship, that's tantamount to a defection of the Church, which is undoubtedly a heretical proposition.

As for BoD, I've repeatedly said that in its Thomistic/Bellarmine form it's not harmful to the faith, but only in its distorted form that undermines the necessity of Catholic faith for salvation.

So you're idiotically straw-manning my position.

Offline Ladislaus

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I've pointed out your inconsistency on a number of issues, and you often avoid them ...

That's only a product of your weak mind, perhaps corrupted by your bad will in blaspheming the Church.  What you claim are inconsistencies and contradictions are due to your inability to grasp distinctions, as demonstrated clearly above where you're incapable of understanding the difference between Thomistic/Bellarminite BoD (which I've always held to be a tenable opinion ... with which I simply disagree) and Pelagian BoD, which undermines EENS dogma.  As for the Magisterium, I've called out some of the dogmatic SVs for exaggerating the scope of strict infallibility.  But there's an enormous chasm between saying that not everything taught by the Magisterium is strictly infallible or irreformable and claiming that the Catholic Church has gone so corrupt that we are required by our Catholic conscience to have nothing to do with it.


Offline DecemRationis

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That's only a product of your weak mind, perhaps corrupted by your bad will in blaspheming the Church.  What you claim are inconsistencies and contradictions are due to your inability to grasp distinctions, as demonstrated clearly above where you're incapable of understanding the difference between Thomistic/Bellarminite BoD (which I've always held to be a tenable opinion ... with which I simply disagree) and Pelagian BoD, which undermines EENS dogma.  As for the Magisterium, I've called out some of the dogmatic SVs for exaggerating the scope of strict infallibility.  But there's an enormous chasm between saying that not everything taught by the Magisterium is strictly infallible or irreformable and claiming that the Catholic Church has gone so corrupt that we are required by our Catholic conscience to have nothing to do with it.

I thought you believed that it was necessary to receive the sacrament of baptism - note, receive the water of the sacrament, the actual sacrament itself - to be saved. Don't you? I'd love to her if it's otherwise; please clarify.

The Magisterium doesn't teach that, prominent examples being the Catechism of Trent and the Catechism of Pius X. Of course, I'll imagine you'll go down the road of either saying the Catechism of Trent or the Catechism of Pius X don't teach contrary to you about salvation, or attack the genuineness of the Pius X catechism. Which would, again, savor of hypocrisy if you did, since you attack Stubborn for his reading (contrary to most, as would be your reading of Trent and the Pius X catechism) of your papal quotes on indefectibility.

As noted in my quote of Mithrandylan about salvation being the "telos" of the Church, her failure (according to you) to teach accurately about a matter involving salvation - since you can't, per Lad (or please correct me), be saved without receipt of the sacrament - is hardly "harmless," don't you think? In any event, your quotes about "indefectibility" don't say anything about allowing "harmless" error - they say the Church is "spotless" in her teaching, etc. They say, free from error in her ordinary Magisterial teaching, period. So, nice try there. Anyway, this "error" about BOD and justification/salvation is not only a "spot" in her teachings, but quite a whopping error about who can be saved and how - if Lad, and not the Magisterium, is right - more like a bullseye with "defectible" in the center.

So please do enlighten us about your agreement vel non about the "harmless," indefectible error of the Magisterium regarding BOD: is it possible to be saved without actual physical receipt of the sacrament of baptism?

Btw, the Catechism of Pius X even talks about an "implicit BOD," well beyond your Thomistic/Bellarmine distinction. Indeed, I think St. Thomas even mentions the possibility of an implicit BOD. And we know where this "harmless" error has gone in the hands of the likes of even as distinguished a bishop like Archbishop Lefebvre, don't we? Your view of "indefectibility" certainly didn't prevent some of the greatest churchmen we have in this crisis - I can go on to Bishop Sanborn, etc., but we don't need to go down the list - from teaching really harmful stuff regarding baptism . . . I guess we could agree on that at least.

Your distinction between I guess what you would call one wheel off the rails and totally off the rails is not very convincing, since, again, the teaching on indefectibilty is no error in official Magisterial teaching, not no "harmful" error in official Magisterial teaching, on matters of theology, and this one, again (BOD), involves the "telos" of the Church. The predominant teaching, the overwhelming view on indefectibility which you cite and espouse, says no error in the teaching of the Gospel of Christ, not "can teach theological error regarding the Gospel, but it won't hurt you in the long run."

Nice try, though.

I read it, the whole refutation is based off the very first item, which is itself error.... "As we’ve already shown, it’s a dogma that 1) heretics are not members of the Church;"


How is this error? Do you believe heretics can be members of the Church?

I disagree.
Lad, do you not think Fr. Chazal's "impounded Pope" position is condemned in the following?

Pope Pius IX, Vatican I, 1870, Sess. 4, chap. 3, ex cathedra: If anyone thus speaks, that the Roman Pontiff has only the office of inspection or direction, but not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world; or, that he possesses only the more important parts, but not the whole plenitude of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate, or over the churches altogether and individually, and over the pastors and the faithful altogether and individually: let him be anathema.