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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 46503 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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And even then, the principle remains that a heretic cannot hold any ecclesiastical office. So, the election of a heretic would still be invalid.
This is a gross generalization, as usual. 

a) There are many different levels of heresy.  Not all preclude one from holding office.
b) There are different aspects to an election and an office.  Temporal and spiritual.
c) The church can change human/temporal rules/laws.  This would affect your "principle".

Using the examples of Pope Pius X and XII...they DIRECTLY contradict your overly-general principle.  So either a) they are both stupid or b) your understanding of the principle is faulty.  I'd bet on the latter, especially considering that they were "guided by the Holy Ghost" and can't err, while you can.

It's amazing to me that some of you sedes will yell and scream "the Church cannot err" and the "pope is guided by the Holy Ghost" but when you read the plain english of Pius X and XII on the conclave, you try to say they were wrong or they can't contradict cuм Ex or some other silly explanation.  

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, #15:

No one, therefore, unless in communion with Peter can share in his authority, since it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church.

And there you have it! According to Pope Leo XIII, the belief of Sean and Stubborn is absurd! I agree with Pope Leo XIII!

In case you weren’t aware, Leo XIII was writing well before Pius XII.

:facepalm:


Offline Pax Vobis

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In case you weren’t aware, Leo XIII was writing well before Pius XII.

:facepalm: title=facepalm
Right.  These guys are arguing backwards.  :jester:

when you read the plain english of Pius X and XII on the conclave, you try to say they were wrong or they can't contradict cuм Ex or some other silly explanation. 
When did me or DigitalLogos ever say Pope Pius XII was wrong or that he can't contradict cuм Ex? The point is, he didn't contradict it. He was not referring to heretics outside the Church. If you read the articles provided, you would get that.

In case you weren’t aware, Leo XIII was writing well before Pius XII.

:facepalm:
Irrelevant! The principle still holds true today, and Pope Pius XII never contradicted it, since he was referring to ecclesiastical impediments, not to impediments of divine law!

I never said that, yet again you are reading into things! I said it is a matter of divine law, because the subject matter is just that. Heretics are not members of the Church by divine law, as the canonist Maroto states: “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself, because, although by divine law they are not considered incapable of participating in certain types of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nevertheless, they must certainly be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See…”

So no, cuм ex is not merely disciplinary (which is something like the law to abstain on fridays), because it is predicated on the divine law that a heretic is not a member of the Church and therefore could not possibly be it's head.

Would that be material heretics, or formal?

Would that be covert or public?

Declared?

Manifest?

You’d better go find Ibranyi, because the argument you’re making has Pius XII in “violation” of divine law.

:facepalm: