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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 46607 times)

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We're not the ones following blind guides.
Give me a break. You literally follow men that will not at all stray from the teachings of Abp. Lefebvre, despite everything that has happened since his death. And then turn around and use the fallible opinions of theologians to support their position rather than the Magisterium or Papal teachings.

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The quotes you posted are beautiful. They are one and all, talking about teachings, not the pope.

Pope Pius IX clearly articulated what the Magisterium is in Tuas Libenter: "...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith."

You're right. They aren't talking about the Pope, they're talking about the infallibility of the Magisterium in response to what Pax was asking about a "definition" of what the Magisterium is.

Common-sense dictates, based upon the quotes I cited, that the Magisterium is synonymous with Tradition. Therefore, since many of you call yourselves "traditional Catholics" what Catholic Tradition can you follow other than the authentic Magisterium?

The Catholic Encyclopedia even equates Tradition with the living Magisterium:
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm

Given that many of you seem to think that a manifest heretic can also be a valid Pope, and therefore part of the Church, you deny the Magisterial teachings of several Popes on that point:

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Pope St. Celestine I, Council of Ephesus, 431:
“… ALL HERETICS corrupt the true expressions of the Holy Spirit with their own evil minds and they draw down on their own heads an inextinguishable flame.

Pope Innocent IV, First Council of Lyons, 1245:
The civil law declares that those are to be regarded as heretics, and ought to be subject to the sentences issued against them, who even on slight evidence are found to have strayed from the judgment and path of the Catholic religion.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum #13:
"can it be lawful for anyone to reject any one of those truths without by the very fact falling into heresy? without separating himself from the Church? – without repudiating in one sweeping act the whole of Christian teaching? For such is the nature of faith that nothing can be more absurd than to accept some things and reject others."
[...]
"he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith."

Canon 1325.2: "After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one is] a heretic;"

Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio, #6:
6. In addition, if ever at any time it should appear that any Bishop (even one acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate), or any Cardinal of said Roman Church, even a Legate as previously stated, or even a Roman Pontiff prior to his promotion or elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, then
his promotion or elevation, even if it be uncontested and carried out by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, invalid, and void;

Pro-tip: Every. Single. Man claiming to be the Pope after Pius XII can be proven to have been a manifest heretic before their election, without even getting into the ipso-facto loss of office for manifest heresy after their election.

And to reiterate once more, there is no reading into these statements per Vatican I:
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Ch. 4, 14. Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
It's a gross generalization that assumes many things, a) the orthodoxy of the pope/cardinals/bishops, b) a love of truth, God, and the Faith, and c) the will to spread the Gospel and save souls.  It also assumes the obvious...that heretics didn't enter the Church to prepare for the antichrist.
Pax, when Lad talks about the Holy Ghost guiding the Church, Lad is talking about the Holy Ghost guiding the pope. The thinking goes something like this: "The pope is a heretic so the Church is no longer guided by the Holy Ghost," which is to say that both the Church and the Holy Ghost have defected.....and R&R is heretical and invariably leads to insanity.

Meanwhile the divine promise has never been broken and the Holy Ghost has never stopped guiding the Church.


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Give me a break. You literally follow men that will not at all stray from the teachings of Abp. Lefebvre, despite everything that has happened since his death. And then turn around and use the fallible opinions of theologians to support their position rather than the Magisterium or Papal teachings.

You're right. They aren't talking about the Pope, they're talking about the infallibility of the Magisterium in response to what Pax was asking about a "definition" of what the Magisterium is.
I posted the definition of what the Magisterium is as explained by Pope Pius IX. How anyone can disagree with what he says is beyond me.


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Pro-tip: Every. Single. Man claiming to be the Pope after Pius XII can be proven to have been a manifest heretic before their election.
No argument from me here. Certainly the popes since at least Pope St. Pius X knew what they were doing when they mandated that even heretic cardinals were to partake in the election - which means the mandate admits that even heretic cardinals could indeed be elected pope.....

"No Cardinal can in any way be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff on the pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict, or other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever; We, in fact, suspend these censures only for the effect of an election of this sort; they will remain in their own force in other circuмstances."
- Pope St. Pius X, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis


I posted the definition of what the Magisterium is as explained by Pope Pius IX. How anyone can disagree with what he says is beyond me.
Nor would I even think to disagree with it.

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No argument from me here. Certainly the popes since at least Pope St. Pius X knew what they were doing when they mandated that even heretic cardinals were to partake in the election - which means the mandate admits that even heretic cardinals could indeed be elected pope.....

"No Cardinal can in any way be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff on the pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict, or other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever; We, in fact, suspend these censures only for the effect of an election of this sort; they will remain in their own force in other circuмstances." - Pope St. Pius X, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis

The problem here being, if a heretic was elected, as decreed by Pope Paul IV, it would immediately be invalid anyway. Which is precisely what happened with John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and now Francis, the last of which isn't even a priest, let alone the Pope...

To quote again:
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Pope Paul IV, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio, #6:

6. In addition, if ever at any time it should appear that any Bishop (even one acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate), or any Cardinal of said Roman Church, even a Legate as previously stated, or even a Roman Pontiff prior to his promotion or elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, then his promotion or elevation, even if it be uncontested and carried out by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, invalid, and void;


No argument from me here. Certainly the popes since at least Pope St. Pius X knew what they were doing when they mandated that even heretic cardinals were to partake in the election - which means the mandate admits that even heretic cardinals could indeed be elected pope.....

"No Cardinal can in any way be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff on the pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict, or other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever; We, in fact, suspend these censures only for the effect of an election of this sort; they will remain in their own force in other circuмstances."
- Pope St. Pius X, Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis
No, Stubborn, this is not referring to "heretic cardinals", which don't exist. It is referring to Catholic cardinals who have incurred minor excommunication for some crime other than heresy, schism or apostasy. Individuals who have incurred minor excommunication are still members of the Church, unlike heretics. You believe a non-Catholic can be the head of the Church, meaning you don't believe the Church is one in Faith. Next time you sing "Unam, sanctam, catholicam" at a Sung Mass, think about what that really means. It does not mean the Church is some heretical sect made up of both Catholics and heretics. The Mystical Body of Christ professes One (unam) Faith.

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

Your fallacious objection was completely refuted long ago here: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/cardinal-elects-excommunicated-pope/

Also: Pope Leo XIII, Testem Benevolentiae, Jan. 22, 1899: “Where Peter is, there is the Church.” You reject this, for you believe Francis is the head of the Conciliar Church, i.e. "Where Peter is, there is not the Church".