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Author Topic: Bergolio says that there are many American Catholics who won’t accept Vatican II  (Read 46126 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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DR-

Subsequent to this letter explaining his form/substance explanation of how a council could err, Vigano acknowledged the validity of V2 as an ecuмenical council.

By that, I presume he’s speaking of the form (ie., it’s ecuмenical because that’s what the revolutionaries called it, and used their authority to attempt to promulgate it).

But in acknowledging the form of a council, it does not follow that it has the substance of an ecuмenical council (ie., binding doctrinal teaching).

I agree with this, and consequently, for me, there is no conundrum.


Problem with this, Sean, is it doesn't confront the view of what I've called the Lad group - that a valid ecuмenical council couldn't teach error like V2. That view, which you and I disagree with, is opposed your view; it doesn't recognize a form/substance distinction. If it's valid, it's protected from error; so that view goes. It was the nearly unanimous view prior to the Council.

I know you cited one work of one (I believe) pre-Vatican II theologian, but I haven't read that, and the opposing authority is overwhelming. That (Lad's view) was the view of the theologians and manualists.

So, as I said, that view must be confronted head on as wrong, or else concede to the Sede argument. I can't concede to the Sede argument because a usurpation of the hierarchy to teach error and even heresy makes a mockery of the very protection of the Church that the Sedes say is afforded the Church: what good is it if such a usurpation could take place?

So, I disagree, and say the prevalent indefectibility view is wrong. I don't see another option if I were to remain honest and rational, and avoid contradiction. And I believe that Catholic truth is that - honest, free of contradiction, and rational.

I wish Vigano would confront the Conundrum, and not dance around it.

Offline Pax Vobis

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I don’t know, maybe you should read what the Popes themselves said about the Magisterium. And I will include all true Popes up to Pius XII here because I, unlike you, believe that their teaching on the Magisterium was consistent.
This begs the question because they didn't technically define what the Magisterium is.  Unless you take the implied definition, due to their repeated use of the word "teaching".  And what is a "teaching"?  It is an authoritative, obligatory fact which all catholics must believe to be saved. 


We know V2 (and arguably, 99% of their acts/words since 1960) have not risen to the level of formal teaching.  Thus, V2 and post-V2 writings/sermons/docuмents etc are not part of the Magisterium (properly and Traditionally understood).

The V2 and post-V2 writings/sermons/docuмents etc would be part of the NEWER/MODERN level of "ordinary, fallible magisterium" which did not exist prior to the 1900s.

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Pope Pius IX clearly articulated what the Magisterium is in Tuas Libenter: "...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith."
This sums it up perfectly.
1.  Did V2 claim to be "handed down" from Tradition?  Parts yes, parts are also admitted to be novelties.
2.  Did V2 claim to be "divinely revealed" by the teaching authority of the Church?  Nope.
3.  Did V2 claim to explain, clarify, define or teach anything as being "of the faith"?  Nope.

Therefore V2 is not part of the Magisterium, as defined prior to the 1900s....which is the time period when Pius IX lived.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Don't worry too much about being identified with me, I'm sure the Lord won't hold it against you.  :laugh2: title=laugh2
No offense, man.  I just hate when people lump everyone together; it confuses arguments.

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But tell me, Pax: who around here do you agree with on everything?
Great point.  Probably Croix...:laugh1:...j/k.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Pope Pius IX clearly articulated what the Magisterium is in Tuas Libenter: "...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith."
It's a sign of his quasi-modernism, that the above definition rebukes +Fenton's explanations and slippery definitions concerning the Magisterium.  It also totally condemns V2.

Offline OABrownson1876

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Bergolio mentions that America has a great number of anti-Vatican II-ites; the truth is Americans still have the 2nd Amendment and have a relative freedom to express their disgust with modernism, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, clown Masses, et alia.  Imagine a man in China publishing the fact that he is disgusted with Vatican II and Bergolio.  He would be in a prison camp before sundown!