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Author Topic: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal  (Read 3470 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2023, 09:29:32 AM »
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  • Don't the Popes have the power to bind and loose? Did Paul IV not use this power, and would this power not extend to what he said about the legitimacy of a heretic Pope?

    Sure Paul IV used this power to bind, but then Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII used the same power to loose what Paul IV had bound.  This is possible in terms of disciplinary laws.  I argue, however, that there's a latent theological principle in cuм ex that undermines the notion of Universal Acceptance.  I personally don't accept "Universal Acceptance" theory.  In addition to the principle implied in cuм ex and even in JP2's docuмent, there's historical precedent to the contrary.  We had two different cases where a legitimate Pope was taken into exile, and after he left Rome, another was "elected" in his place and "Universally Accepted" ... despite the fact that the legitimate Pope was still alive and therefore in possession of his office and authority.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #31 on: April 15, 2023, 01:08:49 PM »
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  • This too is problematic for Universal Acceptance.  If one so elected were "Universally Accepted," it would render this statement completely moot.
    .

    I think a lot of people who dismiss the Universal Peaceful Acceptance idea don't grasp the problem it is intended to solve. The problem is, we must accept with certainty what the pope teaches to the whole Church. In the case of an extraordinary ex cathedra definition, we must accept such a definition with the certitude of faith.

    But such a definition, and such teaching, can only come from a valid pope. An ex cathedra definition from someone who is not a valid pope is not part of faith, and might even be heretical. Catholics, therefore, need a way to know that any given papal claimant is a valid pope, and that he was validly elected.

    No conclusion can be stronger than its premises. If we say that such and such a dogma is part of our faith because it is defined by a pope, while having doubt about whether that pope is a valid pope or not, results in our faith in that (supposedly) defined dogma being in doubt as well.

    So what criterion will tell you that someone is a valid pope? The assertion of the college of cardinals? Maybe. But didn't they all assert that the first pope in the Great Western Schism was pope, and then the French cardinals "changed their minds" later on? So, if you use that criterion, then your acceptance of someone as pope would have to be contingent on waiting to see if any cardinals will change their minds at some point.

    That's how Cardinal Billot argues that the universal, peaceful acceptance of the Church of someone as pope must be an infallible sign that the man is pope. This is a clear sign that everyone can see, and is pretty objective, so it meets what we are looking for as an objective, external proof that someone is pope. And it fits the principle that the entire Church cannot adhere to a false rule of faith, and the pope is the rule of faith for the whole Church.

    Cardinal Billot says that it's not just his opinion about Universal Peaceful Acceptance, but that of the moral unanimity of theologians, and he says it is certain.

    People reject it because they misunderstand what is being said. Some people think this means the whole Church ratifies the election and makes it valid. This is false. The acceptance of a pope is a sign that his election was valid. It does not make it valid, nor does the whole Church elect the pope. Other people object that this idea is false because the whole Church could theoretically adhere to a false pope. But according to Billot this is false.

    It can be explained by an analogy. If electricity is passing through a light bulb, the filament will emit light. The light is an infallible sign that electricity is passing through the bulb, since it is impossible for light to come from the filament without electricity. Are we saying the light coming from the bulb causes electricity to flow through the bulb? No. This is backwards. In the same way, if someone is validly elected (electricity passing through him, something we  can't see), then the whole Church will adhere to him (something eminently visible, as the light from a bulb).

    Now, this is not something that universally takes place. It has happened that a valid pope has been elected and not everyone has adhered to him. The situation with Antipope Anacletus II comes to mind, where the Church was split between the true pope and an antipope. That is possible, according to the UPA thesis. It's possible that not the entire Church will adhere to a true pope.

    What is not possible, according to the Universal Peaceful Acceptance teaching, is that either:

    1. The whole Church reject a valid pope, or that
    2. The whole Church adhere to a false pope, believing him to be a true pope.

    For people who disagree with this idea, I'm really curious what objective, publicly verifiable criterion they think proves whether someone is a valid pope or not?



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #32 on: April 15, 2023, 01:39:43 PM »
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  • .

    I think a lot of people who dismiss the Universal Peaceful Acceptance idea don't grasp the problem it is intended to solve. The problem is, we must accept with certainty what the pope teaches to the whole Church. In the case of an extraordinary ex cathedra definition, we must accept such a definition with the certitude of faith.

    But such a definition, and such teaching, can only come from a valid pope. An ex cathedra definition from someone who is not a valid pope is not part of faith, and might even be heretical. Catholics, therefore, need a way to know that any given papal claimant is a valid pope, and that he was validly elected.

    No conclusion can be stronger than its premises. If we say that such and such a dogma is part of our faith because it is defined by a pope, while having doubt about whether that pope is a valid pope or not, results in our faith in that (supposedly) defined dogma being in doubt as well.

    So what criterion will tell you that someone is a valid pope? The assertion of the college of cardinals? Maybe. But didn't they all assert that the first pope in the Great Western Schism was pope, and then the French cardinals "changed their minds" later on? So, if you use that criterion, then your acceptance of someone as pope would have to be contingent on waiting to see if any cardinals will change their minds at some point.

    That's how Cardinal Billot argues that the universal, peaceful acceptance of the Church of someone as pope must be an infallible sign that the man is pope. This is a clear sign that everyone can see, and is pretty objective, so it meets what we are looking for as an objective, external proof that someone is pope. And it fits the principle that the entire Church cannot adhere to a false rule of faith, and the pope is the rule of faith for the whole Church.

    Cardinal Billot says that it's not just his opinion about Universal Peaceful Acceptance, but that of the moral unanimity of theologians, and he says it is certain.

    People reject it because they misunderstand what is being said. Some people think this means the whole Church ratifies the election and makes it valid. This is false. The acceptance of a pope is a sign that his election was valid. It does not make it valid, nor does the whole Church elect the pope. Other people object that this idea is false because the whole Church could theoretically adhere to a false pope. But according to Billot this is false.

    It can be explained by an analogy. If electricity is passing through a light bulb, the filament will emit light. The light is an infallible sign that electricity is passing through the bulb, since it is impossible for light to come from the filament without electricity. Are we saying the light coming from the bulb causes electricity to flow through the bulb? No. This is backwards. In the same way, if someone is validly elected (electricity passing through him, something we  can't see), then the whole Church will adhere to him (something eminently visible, as the light from a bulb).

    Now, this is not something that universally takes place. It has happened that a valid pope has been elected and not everyone has adhered to him. The situation with Antipope Anacletus II comes to mind, where the Church was split between the true pope and an antipope. That is possible, according to the UPA thesis. It's possible that not the entire Church will adhere to a true pope.

    What is not possible, according to the Universal Peaceful Acceptance teaching, is that either:

    1. The whole Church reject a valid pope, or that
    2. The whole Church adhere to a false pope, believing him to be a true pope.

    For people who disagree with this idea, I'm really curious what objective, publicly verifiable criterion they think proves whether someone is a valid pope or not?

    "Possession is 9/10ths of the law:"

    Therefore the preumption is that the pope is the pope, not that he isn't, and consequently the burden is upon you to demonstrate the man the entire Church and hierarchy acknowledges as pope is not truly so.

    So the problem is the opposite as you frame it:

    Its not that we need a way to know the claimant is truly pope (since he is already presumed by all to be such), but rather, we need a way to know that he is not (and that solution is provided by Cajetan and John of St. Thomas, and even St. Bellarmine, in the declaration they say is required):

    None of them ever thought to plunge the Church into chaos, by implementing a standard of Protestant private/subjective interpretation against a universally acknowledged Pope (which would divide the Church to the last man).

    At least we agree with your #2: It is not possible for the whole Church to adhere to a false pope (Billot).  But that is precisely what sedevacantism alleges has happened.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Francis Is Not Canonically Elected - Fr. Francois Chazal
    « Reply #33 on: April 15, 2023, 02:00:23 PM »
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  • "Possession is 9/10ths of the law:"

    Therefore the preumption is that the pope is the pope, not that he isn't, and consequently the burden is upon you to demonstrate the man the entire Church and hierarchy acknowledges as pope is not truly so.

    So the problem is the opposite as you frame it:

    Its not that we need a way to know the claimant is truly pope (since he is already presumed by all to be such), but rather, we need a way to know that he is not (and that solution is provided by Cajetan and John of St. Thomas, and even St. Bellarmine, in the declaration they say is required):

    None of them ever thought to plunge the Church into chaos, by implementing a standard of Protestant private/subjective interpretation against a universally acknowledged Pope (which would divide the Church to the last man).

    At least we agree with your #2: It is not possible for the whole Church to adhere to a false pope (Billot).  But that is precisely what sedevacantism alleges has happened.
    .

    I wasn't addressing the issue of sedevacantism directly; I was talking more about the Universal Peaceful Acceptance argument of Cardinal Billot, though I do see how the two overlap. While it's a bit of a question how to reconcile Universal Peaceful Acceptance with John 23rd, it is clear that all the subsequent papal claimants have universally been rejected by people who hold the Catholic Faith, on one level or another.

    Your statement that "possession is 9/10ths of the law" is sort of a crude way of re-phrasing the UPA thesis, so I would substantially agree with it.

    The way we know that the Vatican 2 anti-popes are not popes is by their public teaching of heresy. This is something that has always been taught, namely that a heretic cannot hold office in the Church, and that a pope would lose his office by heresy if he were truly pope.

    The fact that modernists universally accept the Vatican 2 popes as popes proves nothing, since modernists are not members of the Church, being heretics, and it is only Catholics whose universal, peaceful acceptance of a pope is an infallible sign that he is pope.

    In fact, anyone with the Catholic Faith at all has rejected the Vatican 2 antipopes as the rule of faith, the source of tradition, and the head of the Church. While many of them give the title of "pope" to these imposters, none of them give any of the essential properties of the pope to them, i.e. the filial submission and obedience to their teaching and rule that they would give to a true pope. So, in their words they claim to accept them as pope, but by their actions they do not.

    Sedevacantists are part of the Church too, and they do neither.

    Now, the idea that the Church universally adhered to John 23rd as a true pope is an interesting argument, possibly against the Universal Peaceful Acceptance idea, if you want to say that John 23rd was not a true pope. In that case I really don't know.