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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: nottambula on February 02, 2019, 10:35:55 AM

Title: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: nottambula on February 02, 2019, 10:35:55 AM
Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope

https://fromrome.wordpress.com/2019/02/02/bergoglio-concedes-that-benedict-is-still-the-pope/

https://twitter.com/EWTNews/status/1088785932306837504
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 02, 2019, 10:40:57 AM
 :facepalm:

It's just an expression of honor, just like former Presidents are often addressed as "Mr. President" by the media even after they have already left office.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: nottambula on February 02, 2019, 10:45:16 AM
Veri Catholici‏  (https://twitter.com/VeriCatholici)
@VeriCatholici

(https://twitter.com/VeriCatholici)


Bergoglio called Benedict "Pope Benedict XVI".... a thing impossible if he had resigned the petrine munus....

https://twitter.com/VeriCatholici/status/1091723266337710080
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 02, 2019, 10:49:52 AM
When exactly has Bergoglio been known for being precise in his use of language?

Give this stupidity a rest.  Ratzinger is every bit as heretical as Bergoglio.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: nottambula on February 02, 2019, 10:52:06 AM
:facepalm:

It's just an expression of honor, just like former Presidents are often addressed as "Mr. President" by the media even after they have already left office.
"after they have already left office"

Except Benedict didn't leave it.

Why are you even bothering to pay attention anyway? I don't bother you guys (your sede viewpoint).
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: 2Vermont on February 02, 2019, 11:07:43 AM
 :jester:
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 02, 2019, 11:20:47 AM
Except Benedict didn't leave it.

Begging the question.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 02, 2019, 11:21:26 AM
Why are you even bothering to pay attention anyway? I don't bother you guys (your sede viewpoint).

You post things on a discussion forum and then expect no one to challenge them?
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 02, 2019, 11:24:09 AM
First it was that Benedict never really resigned (even though he could not have used clearer language in his resignation ... said he was leaving the See vacant so that another Pope would need to be elected in conclave).

Now it's that he was pressured or forced into resigning.  But he explicitly dismissed this in public.  So we have absolutely nothing to go on except pure speculation.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Croixalist on February 02, 2019, 02:36:49 PM
To the folks who think this idea solves the Pope Francis issue: if Benedict has been Pope the whole time, wouldn't that make him completely responsible for every single act of a man he knows full well is not speaking for him or the Church? Wouldn't that make him complicit when he effusively thanks his successor and praises his "goodness?", talks about "transubstantiation of the world?" How does fear for his life possibly account for this? In the process of trying to avoid Francis, you are creating the single worst spineless worm of an anti-martyr in all of Church history.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: forlorn on February 02, 2019, 03:42:19 PM
If Pope Francis is evil enough to knowingly pose as the Pope and leave the real one in exile, why would he drop little hints for cunning sleuths like you? 
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: ggreg on February 02, 2019, 05:33:29 PM
B16 not only resigned, he confirmed he had resigned of his own free will, 11 months later, and said it was valid and speculation was "absurd".

What does a man need to do to convince you?  What better evidence could exist than the first hand testimony of the subject himself?

http://www.lastampa.it/2014/02/25/vaticaninsider/ratzinger-my-resignation-is-valid-speculations-are-simply-absurd-nM4DttQk4owMXqUzr4GRWO/pagina.html (http://www.lastampa.it/2014/02/25/vaticaninsider/ratzinger-my-resignation-is-valid-speculations-are-simply-absurd-nM4DttQk4owMXqUzr4GRWO/pagina.html)

Yes he might be lying, but once he confirms the above, speculation seems futile.  You will simply never know with greater certainty this side of your death.

Were you to find a written letter, a will, dying confession you could claim these were forgeries, or he had lost his marbles as he neared the end.  That would be more believable than ignoring the man's own lucid first hand testimony when he was alive.

Life is increasingly becoming like a Monty Python sketch.

"I am not the Pope".

"Well I say you are Holy Father, and I should know, I've followed a few"
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Nadir on February 02, 2019, 05:51:36 PM
Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope

https://fromrome.wordpress.com/2019/02/02/bergoglio-concedes-that-benedict-is-still-the-pope/

https://twitter.com/EWTNews/status/1088785932306837504

This is on a par with sitting on Santa's knee. Two on one chair!
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: nottambula on February 03, 2019, 03:26:27 AM
You post things on a discussion forum and then expect no one to challenge them?

When someone says "Give this stupidity a rest", that pretty much tells me the person is wanting me to shut up, so I don't exactly see how you were honestly offering a challenge. Sure, you repeated a few of the typical arguments you have before, as did others (which I have already addressed in various threads); but at a certain point, when you know two people are not on the same page (with a high probability of never changing the other person's particular stance), it's also just easier (less wasting time) to avoid them and move on. So, information you may not find useful or of interest (perhaps in your case, these types of posts are downright annoying; of which I guess anyone has the freedom to mock and insult as they so desire)... well, it doesn't mean others might not be interested (and not necessarily persons who are active members of CathInfo -- people are readers only, as I once was). Although, clearly, given that the "Resignationist" position isn't all that popular on this forum, even if someone secretly holds to it, I can understand any tentativeness one may have in actually expressing it.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: nottambula on February 03, 2019, 03:32:00 AM
This is on a par with sitting on Santa's knee. Two on one chair!

Nadir, even Bishop Williamson, in this recent interview at the 22:30 mark, when asked about the significance of Pope Benedict suddenly resigning, stated:

"I think that he was pushed... he semi-resigned... he didn't completely resign, he semi-resigned... he made way for another pope to take his place... but he kept, nevertheless, the white habit, he kept various things of the Papacy..."

https://andrewcarringtonhitchcock.com/2018/12/22/the-andrew-carrington-hitchcock-show-879-bishop-richard-williamson-overcoming-a-post-truth-world/

https://cldup.com/EHuqCBOiRx.mp3

All anyone has to ask themselves is: how is it not an IMPOSSIBILITY for a Pope to "semi-resign" and to have "kept various things of the Papacy", and still not be THE POPE?

Quote from: Bishop Williamson
One day, maybe soon, the See of Rome could become vacant. There have been several false popes, or anti-popes, in Church history. Again, for our own times, or times not far off, Our Lady warned us at La Salette that Rome will become the Seat of the Anti-Christ. It is quite possible that with the death of John Paul II (which may not be far off) there will be a vacant See of Rome or an anti-Pope for a while."
http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/why-society-is-neither-liberal-nor.html
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Croixalist on February 03, 2019, 08:08:18 AM
Someone has to own the actions coming from the Vatican and if it's not Francis, then Benedict gets all the blame. If he allowed himself to be threatened into lying and relinquishing his office for show, than he is indeed far more culpable than Francis. He was already one of the worst Popes in history before he resigned, this would bump him up a few spots.

  
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 03, 2019, 08:58:22 AM
What does a man need to do to convince you?  What better evidence could exist than the first hand testimony of the subject himself?

http://www.lastampa.it/2014/02/25/vaticaninsider/ratzinger-my-resignation-is-valid-speculations-are-simply-absurd-nM4DttQk4owMXqUzr4GRWO/pagina.html (http://www.lastampa.it/2014/02/25/vaticaninsider/ratzinger-my-resignation-is-valid-speculations-are-simply-absurd-nM4DttQk4owMXqUzr4GRWO/pagina.html)

But ... but ... but ... what if someone wrote this letter for him and then forced him to sign it?  After all, he does seem to be a prisoner in the Vatican?  So speculation like this is all that remains.  Now, with Siri, you have multiple independent corroborating circuмstantial evidence which appears to back up the Siri Thesis.  Not smoking gun for sure, there, either.  But here there's nothing but speculation.

NOW ... if some credible third-party witness who knows Ratzinger well came forward and testified that, "yes, indeed, he was pressured to step down against his own will" ... then that would be a different can of worms.  But for now we have only conspiracy speculation.  Keep digging if you will ... but right now you've got a big nothingburger.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 03, 2019, 09:03:38 AM
Someone has to own the actions coming from the Vatican and if it's not Francis, then Benedict gets all the blame. If he allowed himself to be threatened into lying and relinquishing his office for show, than he is indeed far more culpable than Francis. He was already one of the worst Popes in history before he resigned, this would bump him up a few spots.

Interesting expression.

Here's how I would rank the WORST popes in history (prescinding from the question of whether they might in fact be Anti-Popes):

1   )   Paul VI
2   )   John Paul II
3   )   Francis
4   )   John XXIII
5   )   Benedict XVI
6   )   Honorius
7   )   Pius XII
8   )   Benedict XV
9   )   Pius XI
10 )   Alexander VI
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 03, 2019, 09:05:46 AM
This might make for a great thread.  Many Traditional Catholics might be appalled by my list, but I have reasons for all these.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: forlorn on February 03, 2019, 09:46:38 AM
This might make for a great thread.  Many Traditional Catholics might be appalled by my list, but I have reasons for all these.
I'd be interested in reading it. 
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Croixalist on February 03, 2019, 12:22:39 PM
Interesting expression.

Here's how I would rank the WORST popes in history (prescinding from the question of whether they might in fact be Anti-Popes):

1   )   Paul VI
2   )   John Paul II
3   )   Francis
4   )   John XXIII
5   )   Benedict XVI
6   )   Honorius
7   )   Pius XII
8   )   Benedict XV
9   )   Pius XI
10 )   Alexander VI

That's actually my top (bottom 3) right now as it stands. Kudos on not letting up on those pre-VII popes who allowed much of the rot to fester before it exploded. No one beats PVI or JPII in terms of the implementation and popularization of VII.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 03, 2019, 12:37:25 PM
That's actually my top (bottom 3) right now as it stands. Kudos on not letting up on those pre-VII popes who allowed much of the rot to fester before it exploded. No one beats PVI or JPII in terms of the implementation and popularization of VII.

This is refreshing.  I was expecting to be challenged on Pius XII, Benedict XV, etc.  Pius XII was the watershed into Vatican II.  He appointed the vast majority of the Bishops who brought the world Vatican II, opened the door for evolution, NFP as birth control, and set up Bugnini to start his liturgical experimentations.  Benedict XV immediately dismantled the anti-Modernist apparatus put in place by St. Pius X, getting rid of Cardinal del Val and others, disbanding the Sodalitium.  Pius XI was a diplomatic who also played nice with Modernists, and who betrayed the Cristeros.  At the bottom of this list is Alexander VI, who defiled the papacy with his sordid personal life ... but at least he didn't pollute doctrine.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Croixalist on February 03, 2019, 01:31:28 PM
While few could have predicted how far it would end up going, with such a sterling example in Pope St. Pius X it's impossible to let them go without criticism. I don't think I'd put them that low on the list, but I think it gets the point across effectively: VII did not happen spontaneously from the vacuum in space. All was most certainly not well. 
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 03, 2019, 01:37:17 PM
While few could have predicted how far it would end up going, with such a sterling example in Pope St. Pius X it's impossible to let them go without criticism. I don't think I'd put them that low on the list, but I think it gets the point across effectively: VII did not happen spontaneously from the vacuum in space. All was most certainly not well.
 
I do suspect that my list would change were I better acquainted with the entire papal history.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: forlorn on February 03, 2019, 02:37:30 PM

I do suspect that my list would change were I better acquainted with the entire papal history.
Some of the Renaissance Popes could certainly make the list for causing the Reformation, arguably the 3rd biggest crisis in the Church after the present one and the Arian Crisis. 
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: King Wenceslas on February 04, 2019, 11:48:01 AM
Poor Benedict he has lost his marbles so badly he doesn't even know he is the pope.

Benevacantism. A gift that keeps on giving for those who wish to live in the dark.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: nottambula on February 05, 2019, 02:03:21 AM
Poor Benedict he has lost his marbles so badly he doesn't even know he is the pope.

Benevacantism. A gift that keeps on giving for those who wish to live in the dark.

Ha! Aren't you the little user. You credited Fr. Kramer for delivering you from your angst with regard to Bergoglio (you feared Vatican I was wrong), and then knowing full well the rest of Father's position, you go right ahead and slur him by being a smart-alecky schmuck. 

Pride. A gift that keeps on giving for those who wish to enter the darkness of Hell.

Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Geremia on February 05, 2019, 05:39:28 PM
So what if he forgot to say "emeritus"?
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Ladislaus on February 05, 2019, 05:49:37 PM
So what if he forgot to say "emeritus"?

Even in the United States, when media people interview Obama, they'll call him "Mr. President".
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: nottambula on February 06, 2019, 12:44:32 AM
JPII had said that a Pope Emeritus is impossible. Why would anyone be so easily accepting of a title that is without precedent and not question why exactly Benedict ended up being addressed as such? Especially in context of the rest, like what Antonio Socci wrote here, back in 2014.


THE TWO POPES AND US. WHAT IS TRULY 
HAPPENING IN THE CHURCH?
On February 11th the anniversary of the “renunciation” of the papacy by Benedict XVI was remembered. On February 28 it will be a year since the end of his pontificate. But in recent days what happened in the Vatican a year ago is ever more mysterious. And what is the true nature of the “retirement” of Benedict XVI.
ALWAYS POPE
In previous cases, in fact, popes who resign have always returned to their status as cardinal or religious: five months after he abdicated, the famous Celestine V, elected in 1294, returned to being the hermit Peter of Morrone.

And the legitimate Pope Gregory XII, who, in order to repair the great Western Schism retired from the papal office on July 4, 1415, was reinstated to the Sacred College with the title of Cardinal Angelo Correr, serving as papal legate in Marche.

Given the precedents, the same spokesman for Benedict, Father Federico Lombardi, during a briefing with reporters on 20 February last year, in answer to the question “and if he decides to call himself Pope Emeritus?”, said: “I would rule it out. ‘Emeritus’ is a bishop who, even after resignation, maintains a link ... in the case of the Petrine ministry it is better to keep things separate.”

Famous last words. Just one week later, on February 26, the same Father Lombardi had to communicate that Benedict XVI would remain precisely “Pope Emeritus” or “Roman Pontiff Emeritus,” retaining the title of “His Holiness.” He would no longer wear the ring of the fisherman and would dress in a simple white cassock.

In these days Benedict XVI also refused to change his papal coat of arms, rejecting both a return to the heraldry of a cardinal and the coat of arms of a Pope Emeritus. He will keep the coat of arms of a Pope, with the keys of Peter. (my emphasis)

What does all of this mean? Obviously excluded is any personal vanity for a man who has given proof of total detachment from worldly positions (here it involves matters theological, not worldly goods).

So, there can be only a weighty historico-ecclesial reason, probably related to the motives for his retirement (for which so many pressed unduly). But what is this reason?

POPE FOREVER
The only official explanation lies in his speech of February 27, 2013, the one in which he clarified the limits of his decision:

“Here, allow me to go back once again to 19 April 2005. The real gravity of the decision was also due to the fact that from that moment on I was duty bound always and forever to the Lord.”

Attention: I emphasize that expression “always and forever” because the Pope then explained it thus:

“Always—anyone who accepts the Petrine ministry no longer has any privacy. He belongs always and completely to everyone, to the whole Church (...) he no longer belongs to himself….”

Then he added, and I quote:

“The ‘always’ is also a ‘forever’—there is no longer a return to the private sphere. My decision to resign the active exercise of the ministry does not revoke this.”

It is amazing that a statement of this sort passed unnoticed. If words have meaning, in fact, here Benedict XVI says he renounces “active exercise of the ministry,” but the Petrine ministry, as such, is “forever” and is not revoked. In the sense that his resignation applies only to “active exercise” and not to the Petrine ministry.

What other meaning can these words have? I do not see it. Hence we must ask what kind of “resignation” was that of Benedict XVI.

That speech of February 27 seemed consistently to confirm the distinction between “active exercise” and “passive exercise” of the Petrine ministry.

He said, in fact: “I no longer bear the power of office for the governance of the Church, but in the service of prayer I remain, so to speak, in the enclosure of Saint Peter. Saint Benedict, whose name I bear as Pope, will be a great example for me in this. He showed us the way for a life that, whether active or passive, is completely given over to the work of God.”

To the fact of these words, and the words “forever” and “ministry not revoked,” were then added the acts of which we have spoken, that is, the permanence of the name Benedict XVI, the dress, the title “His Holiness,” and the pontifical coat of arms.

IN COMMUNION WITH FRANCIS
Moreover, perfectly recognized by Pope Francis, who on February 11 broadcast this tweet: “Today I invite you to pray for His Holiness Benedict XVI, a man of great courage and humility.”

This is a totally new situation in the history of the Church. In past centuries, in fact there have been, again and again, conflicts between popes and anti-popes, even three at a time.

There had never been, instead, two popes in communion, who recognized each other in the process. I said “two popes,” considering that one of the two is the previous pope, become “Pope Emeritus,” and that involves a completely unheard-of figure.

What in fact is his theological status? And what does “retirement” from only the “active exercise” of the Petrine ministry mean?

Benedict XVI, speaking to the cardinals before the conclave, anticipated his reverence for and obedience to his successor. This in fact is the attitude of Benedict toward Francis. The communion between the two was made visible when they co-wrote the encyclical “Lumen fidei.”

But it is striking that in their filmed encounter at Castel Gandolfo, as well as in the ceremony held in the Vatican gardens to bless the statue of St. Michael, you see the two men of God who embrace each another as brothers, and from neither of the two the gesture of kissing the Ring of the Fisherman. It makes one wonder: who is the Pope?

A SECRET BETWEEN THEM
Is there perhaps a secret, between them, which the world ignores? Or are they to be considered on the same level? We know that cannot be because the Church’s divine constitution can have only one Pope. But then?

There are new and surprising problems in light of which some may also assign unexpected meanings to certain gestures of Francis, such as presenting himself on the balcony of St. Peter only as “Bishop of Rome,” without pontifical vestments, or the lack of the pallium in his Papal coat of arms (the pallium is now the symbol of the pontifical coronation, having replaced the papal tiara).

Of course people who are now trying to pit one against the other are acting arbitrarily. Moreover, some Lefebvrians and the sedevacantists who question the authority of Francis are equally hostile to Benedict. (my emphasis. couldn't resist!)

The constant prayer of Benedict for Francis and the Church is perhaps the great prophetic sign of this historic moment.

However, one cannot pretend that everything is normal, because the situation is almost apocalyptic. And one cannot avoid the questions: about the reasons for the resignation of Benedict, about how many desired it, about the undue pressure they caused. And about his current status.

AN ERA NEVER SEEN BEFORE
In the days following the announcement of the resignation, before he had specified his new situation, even Civiltà Cattolica, like Father Lombardi, had committed a gaffe.

In fact, it published an essay by the canonist Gianfranco Ghirlanda where it was affirmed: “It is clear that a pope who has resigned is no longer pope, and thus no longer has any power in the Church and cannot meddle in any affair of government. It can be asked what title Benedict XVI will retain. We think there should be attributed to him the title of Bishop Emeritus of Rome, like every other diocesan bishop who resigns.”

In any case, not “Pope Emeritus.” But Benedict has chosen to be precisely “Pope Emeritus.” There must be a very serious reason for deciding to “continue” thus. And the consequences are obvious. His are very important signals sent to those who have to understand them, and to the whole Church.

He signals that he continues to defend the treasure of the Church, albeit in a new way. And he seems to repeat what he said during his inaugural Mass: “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves.”

Antonio Socci
From Il Libero, February 16, 2014

http://archive.fatima.org/news/newsviews/newsviews200214.asp
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: Croixalist on February 06, 2019, 02:08:31 AM
Please. There is a precedent for God's Will to be found here. We have in Benedict and Francis a last days realization of the two high priests Annas (emeritus) and Caiaphas (active). They falsely accuse the Church and they wish to hand her over to the godless secular authorities. End of story. Even if Benedict were still the Pope as we understand it, that would only add to his guilt! Handwringing over Papa Ratzi is a waste of time.  
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: nottambula on February 07, 2019, 01:32:41 PM
Please. There is a precedent for God's Will to be found here. We have in Benedict and Francis a last days realization of the two high priests Annas (emeritus) and Caiaphas (active). They falsely accuse the Church and they wish to hand her over to the godless secular authorities. End of story. Even if Benedict were still the Pope as we understand it, that would only add to his guilt! Handwringing over Papa Ratzi is a waste of time.  

You're a Grade A "practical sedevacantist". Why don't you just make the leap then, my goodness. No wonder they get so frustrated with R&Rs.
Title: Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
Post by: nottambula on February 09, 2019, 06:14:42 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/569880965690830848/7gH7-xzS_bigger.png)Veri Catholici‏  (https://twitter.com/VeriCatholici)
@VeriCatholici


True Devotion To Christ requires us to uphold true devotion to the Papacy, based on the Dogmatic Catholic Faith and Canon Law, both of which declare that there cannot be two popes at the same time. But Bergoglio in Panama called Benedict, The Pope. Ergo, Bergoglio is not the pope

https://twitter.com/VeriCatholici/status/1094201039170007042