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Offline Croixalist

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Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2019, 08:08:18 AM »
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  • Someone has to own the actions coming from the Vatican and if it's not Francis, then Benedict gets all the blame. If he allowed himself to be threatened into lying and relinquishing his office for show, than he is indeed far more culpable than Francis. He was already one of the worst Popes in history before he resigned, this would bump him up a few spots.

      
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #16 on: February 03, 2019, 08:58:22 AM »
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  • What does a man need to do to convince you?  What better evidence could exist than the first hand testimony of the subject himself?

    http://www.lastampa.it/2014/02/25/vaticaninsider/ratzinger-my-resignation-is-valid-speculations-are-simply-absurd-nM4DttQk4owMXqUzr4GRWO/pagina.html

    But ... but ... but ... what if someone wrote this letter for him and then forced him to sign it?  After all, he does seem to be a prisoner in the Vatican?  So speculation like this is all that remains.  Now, with Siri, you have multiple independent corroborating circumstantial evidence which appears to back up the Siri Thesis.  Not smoking gun for sure, there, either.  But here there's nothing but speculation.

    NOW ... if some credible third-party witness who knows Ratzinger well came forward and testified that, "yes, indeed, he was pressured to step down against his own will" ... then that would be a different can of worms.  But for now we have only conspiracy speculation.  Keep digging if you will ... but right now you've got a big nothingburger.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #17 on: February 03, 2019, 09:03:38 AM »
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  • Someone has to own the actions coming from the Vatican and if it's not Francis, then Benedict gets all the blame. If he allowed himself to be threatened into lying and relinquishing his office for show, than he is indeed far more culpable than Francis. He was already one of the worst Popes in history before he resigned, this would bump him up a few spots.

    Interesting expression.

    Here's how I would rank the WORST popes in history (prescinding from the question of whether they might in fact be Anti-Popes):

    1   )   Paul VI
    2   )   John Paul II
    3   )   Francis
    4   )   John XXIII
    5   )   Benedict XVI
    6   )   Honorius
    7   )   Pius XII
    8   )   Benedict XV
    9   )   Pius XI
    10 )   Alexander VI

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #18 on: February 03, 2019, 09:05:46 AM »
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  • This might make for a great thread.  Many Traditional Catholics might be appalled by my list, but I have reasons for all these.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #19 on: February 03, 2019, 09:46:38 AM »
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  • This might make for a great thread.  Many Traditional Catholics might be appalled by my list, but I have reasons for all these.
    I'd be interested in reading it. 


    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #20 on: February 03, 2019, 12:22:39 PM »
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  • Interesting expression.

    Here's how I would rank the WORST popes in history (prescinding from the question of whether they might in fact be Anti-Popes):

    1   )   Paul VI
    2   )   John Paul II
    3   )   Francis
    4   )   John XXIII
    5   )   Benedict XVI
    6   )   Honorius
    7   )   Pius XII
    8   )   Benedict XV
    9   )   Pius XI
    10 )   Alexander VI

    That's actually my top (bottom 3) right now as it stands. Kudos on not letting up on those pre-VII popes who allowed much of the rot to fester before it exploded. No one beats PVI or JPII in terms of the implementation and popularization of VII.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #21 on: February 03, 2019, 12:37:25 PM »
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  • That's actually my top (bottom 3) right now as it stands. Kudos on not letting up on those pre-VII popes who allowed much of the rot to fester before it exploded. No one beats PVI or JPII in terms of the implementation and popularization of VII.

    This is refreshing.  I was expecting to be challenged on Pius XII, Benedict XV, etc.  Pius XII was the watershed into Vatican II.  He appointed the vast majority of the Bishops who brought the world Vatican II, opened the door for evolution, NFP as birth control, and set up Bugnini to start his liturgical experimentations.  Benedict XV immediately dismantled the anti-Modernist apparatus put in place by St. Pius X, getting rid of Cardinal del Val and others, disbanding the Sodalitium.  Pius XI was a diplomatic who also played nice with Modernists, and who betrayed the Cristeros.  At the bottom of this list is Alexander VI, who defiled the papacy with his sordid personal life ... but at least he didn't pollute doctrine.

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #22 on: February 03, 2019, 01:31:28 PM »
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  • While few could have predicted how far it would end up going, with such a sterling example in Pope St. Pius X it's impossible to let them go without criticism. I don't think I'd put them that low on the list, but I think it gets the point across effectively: VII did not happen spontaneously from the vacuum in space. All was most certainly not well. 
    Fortuna finem habet.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #23 on: February 03, 2019, 01:37:17 PM »
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  • While few could have predicted how far it would end up going, with such a sterling example in Pope St. Pius X it's impossible to let them go without criticism. I don't think I'd put them that low on the list, but I think it gets the point across effectively: VII did not happen spontaneously from the vacuum in space. All was most certainly not well.
     
    I do suspect that my list would change were I better acquainted with the entire papal history.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #24 on: February 03, 2019, 02:37:30 PM »
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  • I do suspect that my list would change were I better acquainted with the entire papal history.
    Some of the Renaissance Popes could certainly make the list for causing the Reformation, arguably the 3rd biggest crisis in the Church after the present one and the Arian Crisis. 

    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #25 on: February 04, 2019, 11:48:01 AM »
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  • Poor Benedict he has lost his marbles so badly he doesn't even know he is the pope.

    Benevacantism. A gift that keeps on giving for those who wish to live in the dark.


    Offline nottambula

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #26 on: February 05, 2019, 02:03:21 AM »
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  • Poor Benedict he has lost his marbles so badly he doesn't even know he is the pope.

    Benevacantism. A gift that keeps on giving for those who wish to live in the dark.

    Ha! Aren't you the little user. You credited Fr. Kramer for delivering you from your angst with regard to Bergoglio (you feared Vatican I was wrong), and then knowing full well the rest of Father's position, you go right ahead and slur him by being a smart-alecky schmuck. 

    Pride. A gift that keeps on giving for those who wish to enter the darkness of Hell.

    "I think that he [Pope Benedict] was pushed... he semi-resigned... he didn't completely resign, he semi-resigned... he made way for another pope to take his place... but he kept, nevertheless, the white habit, he kept various things of the Papacy." - Bishop Williamson

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #27 on: February 05, 2019, 05:39:28 PM »
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  • So what if he forgot to say "emeritus"?
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #28 on: February 05, 2019, 05:49:37 PM »
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  • So what if he forgot to say "emeritus"?

    Even in the United States, when media people interview Obama, they'll call him "Mr. President".

    Offline nottambula

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    Re: Bergoglio concedes that Benedict is still the Pope
    « Reply #29 on: February 06, 2019, 12:44:32 AM »
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  • JPII had said that a Pope Emeritus is impossible. Why would anyone be so easily accepting of a title that is without precedent and not question why exactly Benedict ended up being addressed as such? Especially in context of the rest, like what Antonio Socci wrote here, back in 2014.


    THE TWO POPES AND US. WHAT IS TRULY 
    HAPPENING IN THE CHURCH?
    On February 11th the anniversary of the “renunciation” of the papacy by Benedict XVI was remembered. On February 28 it will be a year since the end of his pontificate. But in recent days what happened in the Vatican a year ago is ever more mysterious. And what is the true nature of the “retirement” of Benedict XVI.
    ALWAYS POPE
    In previous cases, in fact, popes who resign have always returned to their status as cardinal or religious: five months after he abdicated, the famous Celestine V, elected in 1294, returned to being the hermit Peter of Morrone.

    And the legitimate Pope Gregory XII, who, in order to repair the great Western Schism retired from the papal office on July 4, 1415, was reinstated to the Sacred College with the title of Cardinal Angelo Correr, serving as papal legate in Marche.

    Given the precedents, the same spokesman for Benedict, Father Federico Lombardi, during a briefing with reporters on 20 February last year, in answer to the question “and if he decides to call himself Pope Emeritus?”, said: “I would rule it out. ‘Emeritus’ is a bishop who, even after resignation, maintains a link ... in the case of the Petrine ministry it is better to keep things separate.”

    Famous last words. Just one week later, on February 26, the same Father Lombardi had to communicate that Benedict XVI would remain precisely “Pope Emeritus” or “Roman Pontiff Emeritus,” retaining the title of “His Holiness.” He would no longer wear the ring of the fisherman and would dress in a simple white cassock.

    In these days Benedict XVI also refused to change his papal coat of arms, rejecting both a return to the heraldry of a cardinal and the coat of arms of a Pope Emeritus. He will keep the coat of arms of a Pope, with the keys of Peter. (my emphasis)

    What does all of this mean? Obviously excluded is any personal vanity for a man who has given proof of total detachment from worldly positions (here it involves matters theological, not worldly goods).

    So, there can be only a weighty historico-ecclesial reason, probably related to the motives for his retirement (for which so many pressed unduly). But what is this reason?

    POPE FOREVER
    The only official explanation lies in his speech of February 27, 2013, the one in which he clarified the limits of his decision:

    “Here, allow me to go back once again to 19 April 2005. The real gravity of the decision was also due to the fact that from that moment on I was duty bound always and forever to the Lord.”

    Attention: I emphasize that expression “always and forever” because the Pope then explained it thus:

    “Always—anyone who accepts the Petrine ministry no longer has any privacy. He belongs always and completely to everyone, to the whole Church (...) he no longer belongs to himself….”

    Then he added, and I quote:

    “The ‘always’ is also a ‘forever’—there is no longer a return to the private sphere. My decision to resign the active exercise of the ministry does not revoke this.”

    It is amazing that a statement of this sort passed unnoticed. If words have meaning, in fact, here Benedict XVI says he renounces “active exercise of the ministry,” but the Petrine ministry, as such, is “forever” and is not revoked. In the sense that his resignation applies only to “active exercise” and not to the Petrine ministry.

    What other meaning can these words have? I do not see it. Hence we must ask what kind of “resignation” was that of Benedict XVI.

    That speech of February 27 seemed consistently to confirm the distinction between “active exercise” and “passive exercise” of the Petrine ministry.

    He said, in fact: “I no longer bear the power of office for the governance of the Church, but in the service of prayer I remain, so to speak, in the enclosure of Saint Peter. Saint Benedict, whose name I bear as Pope, will be a great example for me in this. He showed us the way for a life that, whether active or passive, is completely given over to the work of God.”

    To the fact of these words, and the words “forever” and “ministry not revoked,” were then added the acts of which we have spoken, that is, the permanence of the name Benedict XVI, the dress, the title “His Holiness,” and the pontifical coat of arms.

    IN COMMUNION WITH FRANCIS
    Moreover, perfectly recognized by Pope Francis, who on February 11 broadcast this tweet: “Today I invite you to pray for His Holiness Benedict XVI, a man of great courage and humility.”

    This is a totally new situation in the history of the Church. In past centuries, in fact there have been, again and again, conflicts between popes and anti-popes, even three at a time.

    There had never been, instead, two popes in communion, who recognized each other in the process. I said “two popes,” considering that one of the two is the previous pope, become “Pope Emeritus,” and that involves a completely unheard-of figure.

    What in fact is his theological status? And what does “retirement” from only the “active exercise” of the Petrine ministry mean?

    Benedict XVI, speaking to the cardinals before the conclave, anticipated his reverence for and obedience to his successor. This in fact is the attitude of Benedict toward Francis. The communion between the two was made visible when they co-wrote the encyclical “Lumen fidei.”

    But it is striking that in their filmed encounter at Castel Gandolfo, as well as in the ceremony held in the Vatican gardens to bless the statue of St. Michael, you see the two men of God who embrace each another as brothers, and from neither of the two the gesture of kissing the Ring of the Fisherman. It makes one wonder: who is the Pope?

    A SECRET BETWEEN THEM
    Is there perhaps a secret, between them, which the world ignores? Or are they to be considered on the same level? We know that cannot be because the Church’s divine constitution can have only one Pope. But then?

    There are new and surprising problems in light of which some may also assign unexpected meanings to certain gestures of Francis, such as presenting himself on the balcony of St. Peter only as “Bishop of Rome,” without pontifical vestments, or the lack of the pallium in his Papal coat of arms (the pallium is now the symbol of the pontifical coronation, having replaced the papal tiara).

    Of course people who are now trying to pit one against the other are acting arbitrarily. Moreover, some Lefebvrians and the sedevacantists who question the authority of Francis are equally hostile to Benedict. (my emphasis. couldn't resist!)

    The constant prayer of Benedict for Francis and the Church is perhaps the great prophetic sign of this historic moment.

    However, one cannot pretend that everything is normal, because the situation is almost apocalyptic. And one cannot avoid the questions: about the reasons for the resignation of Benedict, about how many desired it, about the undue pressure they caused. And about his current status.

    AN ERA NEVER SEEN BEFORE
    In the days following the announcement of the resignation, before he had specified his new situation, even Civiltà Cattolica, like Father Lombardi, had committed a gaffe.

    In fact, it published an essay by the canonist Gianfranco Ghirlanda where it was affirmed: “It is clear that a pope who has resigned is no longer pope, and thus no longer has any power in the Church and cannot meddle in any affair of government. It can be asked what title Benedict XVI will retain. We think there should be attributed to him the title of Bishop Emeritus of Rome, like every other diocesan bishop who resigns.”

    In any case, not “Pope Emeritus.” But Benedict has chosen to be precisely “Pope Emeritus.” There must be a very serious reason for deciding to “continue” thus. And the consequences are obvious. His are very important signals sent to those who have to understand them, and to the whole Church.

    He signals that he continues to defend the treasure of the Church, albeit in a new way. And he seems to repeat what he said during his inaugural Mass: “Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves.”

    Antonio Socci
    From Il Libero, February 16, 2014

    http://archive.fatima.org/news/newsviews/newsviews200214.asp
    "I think that he [Pope Benedict] was pushed... he semi-resigned... he didn't completely resign, he semi-resigned... he made way for another pope to take his place... but he kept, nevertheless, the white habit, he kept various things of the Papacy." - Bishop Williamson

     

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