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Author Topic: Bergoglio an antipope  (Read 8260 times)

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Offline hollingsworth

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Re: Bergoglio an antipope
« Reply #120 on: October 04, 2023, 01:58:20 PM »
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    Welcome aboard.  If this man (Jorge) is a Catholic, then the term Catholic is meaningless.  Even if one doesn't hold strictly to sedevacantism, Father Chazal's sedeimpoundism also addresses the situation very well (similar to sedeprivationism).  Bottom line is:  Does this man teach with the authority of Christ?
    I'm not sure what kind of a craft Im being welcomed aboard. If it's the craft of "sedeimpoundism,"  I simply respond, OK.  But I'm not even sure what that means.  Likewise for the craft of "sedeprivationism."  

    Look, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it's a duck.  Francis quacks like a heretic and a non-Catholic, and walks like a heretic and a non-Catholic, he must, therefore, be exactly what he looks like.
    Fr. Altman, (and other important hierarchs), describe clearly how Francis quacks and walks.  I understand their explanations.  They make sense.  So I simply accede to their conclusions.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #121 on: October 04, 2023, 03:29:18 PM »
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  • I'm not sure what kind of a craft Im being welcomed aboard. If it's the craft of "sedeimpoundism,"  I simply respond, OK.  But I'm not even sure what that means.  Likewise for the craft of "sedeprivationism." 

    Look, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it's a duck.  Francis quacks like a heretic and a non-Catholic, and walks like a heretic and a non-Catholic, he must, therefore, be exactly what he looks like.
    Fr. Altman, (and other important hierarchs), describe clearly how Francis quacks and walks.  I understand their explanations.  They make sense.  So I simply accede to their conclusions.
    Level 2 layman Altman is an important hierarch to you?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #122 on: October 05, 2023, 05:02:05 AM »
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  • I'm not sure what kind of a craft Im being welcomed aboard. If it's the craft of "sedeimpoundism,"  I simply respond, OK.  But I'm not even sure what that means.  Likewise for the craft of "sedeprivationism." 

    Look, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it's a duck.  Francis quacks like a heretic and a non-Catholic, and walks like a heretic and a non-Catholic, he must, therefore, be exactly what he looks like.
    Fr. Altman, (and other important hierarchs), describe clearly how Francis quacks and walks.  I understand their explanations.  They make sense.  So I simply accede to their conclusions.
    Does your conversion mean that you are now doing the opposite of what you did previous to your conversion, which is to ask you if you are now going to be "defending the honor of the Holy See and the Papacy and the Catholic Church" as Lad said? Is that what your conversion has accomplished?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #123 on: October 05, 2023, 11:45:51 AM »
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    Does your conversion mean that you are now doing the opposite of what you did previous to your conversion, which is to ask you if you are now going to be "defending the honor of the Holy See and the Papacy and the Catholic Church" as Lad said? Is that what your conversion has accomplished?
    Maybe 'conversion' is the wrong term, a bad choice of words.  Vision correction might be a better way to put it.

    I am more than willing "to defend the honor of the Holy See and the Papacy.."  But I am unwilling to defend what is presently dishonorable and indefensible.  A 'pope' who opens his arms and invites in the LGBTQ+ "community, who blesses same sex couples, who pursues a Satanic climate agenda, who openly supports the globalist Jєωιѕн elite, who promotes a disgusting pervert and appoints him to the CDF, is not deserving of honor.  He can not be defended.  He can, only by the wildest imagination, be considered a pope.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #124 on: October 05, 2023, 07:05:20 PM »
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  • Level 2 layman Altman is an important hierarch to you?

    What does it matter who he is?  hollingsworth was persuaded by his message and his delivery.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #125 on: October 05, 2023, 07:07:30 PM »
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  • Does your conversion mean that you are now doing the opposite of what you did previous to your conversion, which is to ask you if you are now going to be "defending the honor of the Holy See and the Papacy and the Catholic Church" as Lad said? Is that what your conversion has accomplished?

    Truth matters, Stubborn.  It's not enough to just go to the Tridentine Mass.  You have to defend the truth, defend the Church, and defend the Papacy.  You can smells-and-bells all you want, but it means nothing if you throw the Church under the bus in order to salvage Jorge.  In other words, "doing" isn't matters nothing if what you're "believing" is nothing more than a thinly-veiled Old Catholicism.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #126 on: October 06, 2023, 04:20:44 AM »
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  • Maybe 'conversion' is the wrong term, a bad choice of words.  Vision correction might be a better way to put it.

    I am more than willing "to defend the honor of the Holy See and the Papacy.."  But I am unwilling to defend what is presently dishonorable and indefensible.  A 'pope' who opens his arms and invites in the LGBTQ+ "community, who blesses same sex couples, who pursues a Satanic climate agenda, who openly supports the globalist Jєωιѕн elite, who promotes a disgusting pervert and appoints him to the CDF, is not deserving of honor.  He can not be defended.  He can, only by the wildest imagination, be considered a pope.
    Thanks for answering. I will be interested to see after a few weeks or months if this reply remains, or morphs into  dedicated sedeism.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #127 on: October 06, 2023, 04:35:38 AM »
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  • Truth matters, Stubborn.  It's not enough to just go to the Tridentine Mass.  You have to defend the truth, defend the Church, and defend the Papacy.  You can smells-and-bells all you want, but it means nothing if you throw the Church under the bus in order to salvage Jorge.  In other words, "doing" isn't matters nothing if what you're "believing" is nothing more than a thinly-veiled Old Catholicism.
    Yes of course truth matters, so much so that we are bound to it. I find it somewhat remarkable that you and other sedes believe the papacy can only be defended by removing the pope, and in the process all of the hierarchy, then worry about the Church's indefectibility. Quite the self imposed conundrum you've entangled yourself in. Most of us trads find better things to busy ourselves with.

    It truly is as Digital Logos said in his last post, [sedeism] "entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #128 on: October 06, 2023, 06:21:29 AM »
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  • Yes of course truth matters, so much so that we are bound to it. I find it somewhat remarkable that you and other sedes believe the papacy can only be defended by removing the pope, and in the process all of the hierarchy, then worry about the Church's indefectibility. Quite the self imposed conundrum you've entangled yourself in. Most of us trads find better things to busy ourselves with.

    It truly is as Digital Logos said in his last post, [sedeism] "entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate."


    Stubborn, do you agree with or reject the following statement?

    Roman pontiffs and ecuмenical councils have wandered outside the limits of their powers, have usurped the rights of princes, and have even erred in defining matters of faith and morals.”
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #129 on: October 06, 2023, 06:27:11 AM »
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  • I find it somewhat remarkable that you and other sedes believe the papacy can only be defended by removing the pope ...

    Apart from the fact that no one's "removing" the "pope", but simply holding that the V2 papal claimants of the Conciliar era are usurpers (your diction reminds me of a 4th grader's), yes, absolutely.  When you attribute grave error (that requires Catholics sever communion with the hierarchy) and the promulgation of a sacrilegious Mass to the papacy, to the papal office, then you're denigrating and wrecking the papacy.

    Vatican I:  "[T]his See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples".  You openly and explicitly reject this teaching of Vatican I.

    If the Conciliar "Popes" don't blemish the See of Peter with error, then there's no such thing.  Papacy can never recover from this is these guys have been "popes".  Going forward, any teaching of the chair will be treated as nothing more than this guy in the papal office opining about a certain matter of Catholic doctrine.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #130 on: October 06, 2023, 06:37:26 AM »
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  • Stubborn, do you agree with or reject the following statement?

    Roman pontiffs and ecuмenical councils have wandered outside the limits of their powers, have usurped the rights of princes, and have even erred in defining matters of faith and morals.”
    Reject.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #131 on: October 06, 2023, 06:49:12 AM »
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  • Apart from the fact that no one's "removing" the "pope", but simply holding that the V2 papal claimants of the Conciliar era are usurpers (your diction reminds me of a 4th grader's), yes, absolutely.  When you attribute grave error (that requires Catholics sever communion with the hierarchy) and the promulgation of a sacrilegious Mass to the papacy, to the papal office, then you're denigrating and wrecking the papacy.
    No Lad, you removed the pope, whatever the means you wish to use to justify that, that's what you did. Then you accuse me of wrecking the papacy, as if I had / have anything to do with that, but you don't. Pretty funny actually.

    Quote
    Vatican I:  "[T]his See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples".  You openly and explicitly reject this teaching of Vatican I.

    If the Conciliar "Popes" don't blemish the See of Peter with error, then there's no such thing.  Papacy can never recover from this is these guys have been "popes".  Going forward, any teaching of the chair will be treated as nothing more than this guy in the papal office opining about a certain matter of Catholic doctrine.
    I'm not the one who rejects that teaching, you are. Proof of this is that you removed the pope from his See just as if that is something that the Church binds you to do.

    If the pope ever teaches or commands something I can do for the greater glory of God, then I will do it. You call this rejecting V1 because you have no understanding and meddle into things you have no need, right or business meddling in.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Everlast22

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #132 on: October 06, 2023, 06:59:55 AM »
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  • Question -



    Would the bigger problem be that the group of men making up the Magisterium are all pretty much heretics?

    From what I understand, one of the major roles of the Magisterium is to "check" the Pope. Obviously, this has not been done in quite a while due to an anemic slow bleed of Dogma and Doctrines and wolves entering the seminary since the French Revolution. 



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #133 on: October 06, 2023, 07:19:33 AM »
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  • Question -



    Would the bigger problem be that the group of men making up the Magisterium are all pretty much heretics?

    From what I understand, one of the major roles of the Magisterium is to "check" the Pope. Obviously, this has not been done in quite a while due to an anemic slow bleed of Dogma and Doctrines and wolves entering the seminary since the French Revolution.
    Since V2 the group of men making up the magisterium hierarchy have been heretics in so far as they preach the new religion of V2. So that is nothing new. No, the hierarchy is not supposed to check the pope, they are supposed to obey the pope - the Church is a hierarchical form of government, although they are duty bound to speak up and tell him when he is doing something wrong, harmful to or against the faith.

    Christ established His Church knowing that in the 1960s that these days would happen.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #134 on: October 06, 2023, 07:57:35 AM »
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  • If the Conciliar "Popes" don't blemish the See of Peter with error, then there's no such thing. Papacy can never recover from this is these guys have been "popes".  Going forward, any teaching of the chair will be treated as nothing more than this guy in the papal office opining about a certain matter of Catholic doctrine.

    I do not believe that it is intended to recover. This is why the "R & R" position is not as offensive to Catholic dogma as you maintain: we are dealing with a sui generis spot on the timeline, when the normal laws of the kingdom and the Church are upended. The analogy I have used is like a miracle in nature, when God suspends the laws of physics or the usual laws of nature's operation (however you want to refer to them)  - suspends, without rendering them nugatory, or belying the truth of their operation under normal circuмstances. All of this has been revealed in Scripture.

    As Viva Cristo Rey so rightly intones repeatedly: "Read and comprehend your Douay Rheims bibles."


    Quote
    Jer. 25:15-17, 31-37

     15 For thus saith the Lord of hosts the God of Israel: Take the cup of wine of this fury at my hand: and thou shalt make all the nations to drink thereof, unto which I shall send thee.  16 And they shall drink, and be troubled, and be mad because of the sword, which I shall send among them.  17 And I took the cup at the hand of the Lord, and I presented it to all the nations to drink of it, to which the Lord sent me:  18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Juda, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof: to make them a desolation, and an astonishment, and a hissing, and a curse, as it is at this day.

    . . .

    31 The noise is come even to the ends of the earth: for the Lord entereth into judgment with the nations: he entereth into judgment with all flesh; the wicked I have delivered up to the sword, saith the Lord.  32 Thus saith the Lord of hosts: Behold evil shall go forth from nation to nation: and a great whirlwind shall go forth from the ends of the earth.  33 And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even to the other end thereof: they shall not be lamented, and they shall not be gathered up, nor buried: they shall lie as dung upon the face of the earth.  34 Howl, ye shepherds, and cry: and sprinkle yourselves with ashes, ye leaders of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and your dispersion are accomplished, and you shall fall like precious vessels.  35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the leaders of the flock to save themselves.



    Where does this judgment of "all nations" begin? Jerusalem. At the time when God's final judgment descends, who is "Israel/Jerusalem"?

     

    Quote
    1 Peter 4:17-19

    17 For the time is, that judgment should begin at the house of God. And if first at us, what shall be the end of them that believe not the gospel of God?  18 And if the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?  19 Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God, commend their souls in good deeds to the faithful Creator.

    The "cup of the wine of this fury" is a pregnant phrase; receive its offspring unto knowledge. In the Greek of the Septuagint, the phrase is "cup . . . of undiluted wine." The word for "undiluted" occurs 3 times in Scripture:



    Quote

    undiluted ακράτου 194
    3 occurrences

    Ps 75:83754
    ότι
    For
    4221
    ποτἡριον
    a cup
    1722
    ϵν
    is in
    5495
    χϵιρί
    the hand
    2962
    κυρίου
    of the LORD
    3631
    οίνου
    [2wine
    194
    ακράτου
    1of undiluted],
    4134
    πλἡρϵς
    a full
    2768.1
    κϵράσματος
    mixture;
    2532
    και
    and
    2827
    έκλινϵν
    he leans it
    1537
    ϵκ
    3778
    τούτου
    this way
    1519
    ϵις
    unto
    3778
    τούτο
    this other way;
    4133
    πλην
    but
    3588
    ο
    5166.3-1473
    τρυγίας αυτού
    its wine with dregs
    3756
    ουκ
    was not
    1573.2
    ϵξϵκϵνώθη
    emptied out -
    4095
    πίονται
    [6shall drink it
    3956
    πάντϵς
    1all
    3588
    οι
    2the
    268
    αμαρτωλοί
    3sinners
    3588
    της
    4of the
    1093
    γης
    5earth].

    Jer 25:153779
    ούτως
    Thus
    2036
    ϵίπϵ
    said
    2962
    κύριος
    the LORD
    3588
    ο
    2316
    θϵός
    God
    *
    Ἰσραἡλ
    of Israel,
    2983
    λάβϵ
    Take
    3588
    το
    the
    4221
    ποτἡριον
    cup
    3588
    του
    3631
    οίνου
    [2wine
    3588
    του
    194-3778
    ακράτου τούτου
    1of this undiluted]
    1537
    ϵκ
    from out of
    5495-1473
    χϵιρός μου
    my hand,
    2532
    και
    and
    4222
    ποτιϵίς
    you shall give to drink
    3956
    πάντα
    all
    3588
    τα
    the
    1484
    έθνη
    nations
    4314
    προς
    to
    3739
    α
    whom
    649
    αποστϵλλώ
    I send
    1473
    σϵ
    you
    1909
    ϵπ
    unto
    1473
    αυτούς
    them!

    Rev 14:102532
    και
    even
    1473
    αυτός
    he
    4095
    πίϵται
    shall drink
    1537
    ϵκ
    of
    3588
    του
    the
    3631
    οίνου
    wine
    3588
    του
    of the
    2372
    θυμού
    rage
    3588
    του
    2316
    θϵού
    of God
    3588
    του
    2767
    κϵκϵρασμένου
    being mixed
    194
    ακράτου
    undiluted
    1722
    ϵν
    in
    3588
    τω
    the
    4221
    ποτηρίω
    cup
    3588
    της
    3709-1473
    οργἡς αυτού
    of his wrath;
    2532
    και
    and
    928
    βασανισθἡσϵται
    he shall be tormented
    1722
    ϵν
    by
    4442
    πυρί
    fire
    2532
    και
    and
    2303
    θϵίω
    sulphur
    1799
    ϵνώπιον
    before
    3588
    των
    the
    39
    αγίων
    holy
    32
    αγγέλων
    angels,
    2532
    και
    and
    1799
    ϵνώπιον
    before
    3588
    του
    the
    721
    αρνίου
    lamb.


    The DR of the Psalm (which is 74:9 according to the Catholic numbering): 

    Quote
    PS 74:9 For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup of strong wine full of mixture. And he hath poured it out from this to that: but the dregs thereof are not emptied: all the sinners of the earth shall drink.


    This is the cup of God's wrath, the eternal fires of God's judgment (hell), reserved for all sinners unredeemed by the Blood of the Lamb. From the Douay Rheims:



    Quote
    Rev. 14:10 He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb.

    Rev. 20:9-10, 15

    9 And there came down fire from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beast  10 And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever . . .  15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

    Rev. 21:8 -  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

    The "false prophet" and the minions of the Great Apostasy of 2 Th. 2 are destroyed by the Lord Jesus at His second coming:


    Quote
    2 Th. 2:7-14

    7 For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way.  8 And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him,  9 Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,  10 And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:  11 That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.  12 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth:  13 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.  14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

    In looking to a restoration of the papacy, I fear you are chasing shadows into a past and a time that is long gone forever.

    As Viva says, look to the Scriptures, pray, get the sacraments where you can get them, and batten down the spiritual hatches.


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.