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Author Topic: Bergoglio an antipope  (Read 9529 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Bergoglio an antipope
« Reply #90 on: September 30, 2023, 04:42:58 AM »
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  • Catholics must hitch up their drawers, and finally admit that Francis is a fake and a phony, an evil interloper, who is not even Cadtholic
    Why must Catholics do this? I am asking you because if there is one thing that CI demonstrates, it's that it never ends there, at least not for many of those who do what you say must be done.

    I mean, I think that nearly all trads who've been trad for any length of time are well aware that the pope(s) are heretical anti-Catholics, and we also know that there are a relatively few (sedes) who make a binding doctrine out of it, who then preach this useless doctrine as if it is a critically necessary doctrine of the Church which is to be applied to nearly all subjects and aspects of our holy religion. 

    Heck, there are priests and bishops who did do what you say above, next thing you know they split away from their trad groups, started their own chapels, seminaries, schools and convents - all because of that useless doctrine which came about because they too thought they "must hitch up their drawers...." That's what doing what you say above leads to for some, reality proves this.

    No, our duty is to keep the faith no matter what, not concern ourselves with the status of heretical popes. That being said, I sincerely hope the sedes guessed correctly, because if not, the price is too high.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #91 on: September 30, 2023, 05:08:38 AM »
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  • No Catholic can deny that Christ is the head of the Church, but this is exactly what Protestants say in order to demean the papacy. You and they (the Protestants) NEED to destroy the holy office of the papacy in order to reconcile what you and they believe is the correct way Christ established His Church.
    Nor against this may one argue that the primacy of jurisdiction established in the Church gives such a Mystical Body two heads. For Peter in virtue of his primacy is only Christ’s Vicar; so that there is only one chief Head of this Body, namely Christ, who never ceases Himself to guide the Church invisible, though at the same time He rules it visibly, through him who is His representative on earth. After His glorious Ascension into heaven this Church rested not on Him alone, but on Peter too, its visible foundation stone. That Christ and His Vicar constitute one only Head is the solemn teaching of Our predecessor of immortal memory Boniface VIII in the Apostolic Letter Unam Sanctam; and his successors have never ceased to repeat the same.

    (Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Mystici Corporis, n. 40; underlining added.)




    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #92 on: September 30, 2023, 05:30:10 AM »
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  • 41. They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.

    (Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Mystici Corporis, n. 41; underlining added.)
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #93 on: September 30, 2023, 05:49:02 AM »
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  • No. Incorrect. Did you even read the snip I posted? You should. It explains a lot in just a few sentences.

    Let's keep on topic and talk about today and how sedes prove they do not need a pope by having kept the faith without any pope  - or hierarchy or priests for the last 60 years, all the while excoriating R&R over the matter.

    I do believe that the pope is an essential part of the Church, but not having one for the past 60 years doesn’t preclude the papacy’s necessity or the survival of the Church. Many Church Fathers, theologians, and scholars dealing with eschatology have discussed the “end times” regarding the eclipse of the papacy. Father O’Reilly being one theologian off the top of my head. This long interregnum is something that has been speculated about in the past, so whether SV is true or not, it was not out of the realm of possibility in the minds of our betters.

    Now, the Church is 2000 years old. You are inferring that the papacy wasn’t a necessary part of the Church since you seem to believe that the pope’s function was no more (or little more) than an ordinary bishop. Is that correct?

    I’ve answered your question, now answer mine.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #94 on: September 30, 2023, 05:50:46 AM »
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  • 41. They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.

    (Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Mystici Corporis, n. 41; underlining added.)

    And it is you who does not adhere loyally to the man you believe to be the Vicar of Christ.  You are also the one who ignores the teaching in 40 that the Vicar of Christ and Christ are one Head.  

    These excerpts condemn your own position.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #95 on: September 30, 2023, 10:00:10 AM »
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  • Yes he has.

    Not entirely.  Louie admittingly attends Mass at a FSSP parish.  FSSP priests are ordained by bishops consecrated in the New Rite.  Therefore, Louie implicitly accepts that the New Rite of Consecration is valid.  If am incorrect about this conclusion, then please enlighten me.  I have not once heard him state that the New Rite of Consecration is invalid or doubtfully valid.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #96 on: September 30, 2023, 10:35:16 AM »
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  • Not entirely.  Louie admittingly attends Mass at a FSSP parish.  FSSP priests are ordained by bishops consecrated in the New Rite.  Therefore, Louie implicitly accepts that the New Rite of Consecration is valid.  If am incorrect about this conclusion, then please enlighten me.  I have not once heard him state that the New Rite of Consecration is invalid or doubtfully valid.

    Hard to say.  There are a handful of FSSP priests that are valid.  Some had been in SSPX prior to the formation of FSSP and then you had cases like that of Fr. Carlos Casavantes who had been conditionally ordained by Bishop Williamson (back when he was still in SSPX) ... despite having been ordained by JP2 Wojtyla personally in Rome :laugh1:

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #97 on: September 30, 2023, 10:35:45 AM »
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  • I do believe that the pope is an essential part of the Church, but not having one for the past 60 years doesn’t preclude the papacy’s necessity or the survival of the Church. Many Church Fathers, theologians, and scholars dealing with eschatology have discussed the “end times” regarding the eclipse of the papacy. Father O’Reilly being one theologian off the top of my head. This long interregnum is something that has been speculated about in the past, so whether SV is true or not, it was not out of the realm of possibility in the minds of our betters.

    Now, the Church is 2000 years old. You are inferring that the papacy wasn’t a necessary part of the Church since you seem to believe that the pope’s function was no more (or little more) than an ordinary bishop. Is that correct?

    I’ve answered your question, now answer mine.
    Ok, in answer to your question: Yes, the papacy is, was, and always will be a necessary part of the Church, I have never said or implied otherwise, yet I stand by what I said earlier; "The purpose [and reason] for him being the pope does not change just because he's a 100% disaster and has a diabolical purpose of his own, and before God he will answer for what he's doing. That much is certain."

    For my own salvation, for your own salvation and those under our care, what is not important, what does not really matter to us for our salvation is the status of the pope. The reason it does not matter is because his status is something that by divine design we can do absolutely nothing about. Because we can do absolutely nothing about it, his status is something that is altogether useless to even contemplate for more than a brief or passing moment or two. 

    We all know right from wrong regardless of his status because of the Church's teachings and traditions prior to V2, as the snip I posted said; "...Everything has been instituted with incomparable wisdom. After almost two thousand years, the Church has developed into an organization of excellent structure  The doctrine is certain; the moral code is incontrovertible in the main; the divine liturgy has been (had been) refined to a perfection; the code of laws worked. In a word, the spiritual doctrine, the tradition, the authority, the experience, the customs, the supernatural objectives all have been established. With a little prudence and a little caution on the part of the pope, Holy Church will practically run itself!..."

    Because of the situation within the Church, we have no choice but to admit that "The Church is practically running itself," since V2 - because by all appearances, it is running itself. What the situation has done is cause us all to live according to the Church Christ founded while the pope is out there shoveling more and more red hot coals on himself. There is nothing we can do about that either.

    IMO, and I certainly could be wrong about this, but I believe that we are living the prophesy of Jeremias 23:1-4 right now, since V2:

    23:1 Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord 2 Therefore thus saith the Lord the God of Israel to the pastors that feed my people: You have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold I will visit upon you for the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.  3 And I will gather together the remnant of my flock, out of all the lands into which I have cast them out: and I will make them return to their own fields, and they shall increase and be multiplied.  4 And I will set up pastors over them, and they shall feed them: they shall fear no more, and they shall not be dismayed: and none shall be wanting of their number, saith the Lord.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #98 on: September 30, 2023, 10:47:58 AM »
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  • And it is you who does not adhere loyally to the man you believe to be the Vicar of Christ.  You are also the one who ignores the teaching in 40 that the Vicar of Christ and Christ are one Head. 

    These excerpts condemn your own position.
    Condemns my own position? My position has +2000 years of what the Church has always taught to back it up, your problem is your idea of what my position is has been adulterated by your sede thinking. I hope you take this in the spirit in which I said it, not an ad hominem.

    I am as loyal to the pope as St. Thomas More was to King Henry VIII, who remained the king's good subject right up until they chopped his head off - but God's first. Here you can simply reference my signature.

    Did you understand the part that said: "They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it."

    In your quote, PPXII is teaching us the position of supreme authority held by the pope as both being one head of the Church with Christ. In my quote, he tells what the result is of trying to accept one head but not the other, i.e disunity and can't find the Church - which aptly describes sedeism.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Mark 79

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #99 on: September 30, 2023, 12:43:57 PM »
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  • [yawn]

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #100 on: September 30, 2023, 12:53:52 PM »
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  • Not entirely.  Louie admittingly attends Mass at a FSSP parish.  FSSP priests are ordained by bishops consecrated in the New Rite.  Therefore, Louie implicitly accepts that the New Rite of Consecration is valid.  If am incorrect about this conclusion, then please enlighten me.  I have not once heard him state that the New Rite of Consecration is invalid or doubtfully valid.

    Wow, that’s surprising news to me. Let me know what you find out?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #101 on: September 30, 2023, 06:27:43 PM »
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  • I insert, parenthetically, the following sermon into this discussion.  If you are not moved emotionally by it, then there is something gravely wrong with you.  It was delivered, I believe, on Sunday in a Novus Ordo setting at the Santa Barbara Mission in California, about two months ago.  
    Immediately after the sermon, the priest giving it was told by his pastor to pick up his things and leave the premises permanently.
    Note the applause towards the end of his sermon- quite enthusiastic and spontaneous.
    Listen and weep!  



    Offline EdgarLovesMary

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #102 on: September 30, 2023, 09:47:51 PM »
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  • In early 2021, I received the wholly unmerited grace of a dramatic and sudden "conversion" that sent me directly to the TLM, which I'd had no exposure to prior.

    Since then, I've spent too much time wrestling with this topic... I'm still very sympathetic to the sedeprivationist position, but I've come to believe that the exact situation of the papacy is not for me to know nor for me to publicly declare as a layman at this time...

    Bottom line: we're experiencing a severe and well-earned chastizement.

    What matters to this layman is my reaction to this chastizement--not my understanding and debating of the exact means of chastizement.

    And my reaction must obviously be to flee to penance, prayer and reception of the sacraments in their traditional, time-honored forms.

    TLDR version: It's ultimately a distraction for laymen to argue whether or not we have an antipope on the Chair of Peter... God is obviously using Pope Francis / Jorge Bergoglio to chastize us and we must react justly, with penance and prudence.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #103 on: October 01, 2023, 05:49:11 AM »
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  • In early 2021, I received the wholly unmerited grace of a dramatic and sudden "conversion" that sent me directly to the TLM, which I'd had no exposure to prior.

    Since then, I've spent too much time wrestling with this topic... I'm still very sympathetic to the sedeprivationist position, but I've come to believe that the exact situation of the papacy is not for me to know nor for me to publicly declare as a layman at this time...

    Bottom line: we're experiencing a severe and well-earned chastizement.

    What matters to this layman is my reaction to this chastizement--not my understanding and debating of the exact means of chastizement.

    And my reaction must obviously be to flee to penance, prayer and reception of the sacraments in their traditional, time-honored forms.

    TLDR version: It's ultimately a distraction for laymen to argue whether or not we have an antipope on the Chair of Peter... God is obviously using Pope Francis / Jorge Bergoglio to chastize us and we must react justly, with penance and prudence.
    Well said.

    God allows this crisis for the same reason He permits us to be tempted, namely, for the sake of our purification, for the sake of our proving to Almighty God that we are worthy of Him as he permits our enemies to rule the Church on earth on earth for a little while, dividing out the faithful more and more.

    The strategy of “Divide et impera” (divide and conquer) is probably as old as the devil himself.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #104 on: October 01, 2023, 10:55:03 AM »
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  • God allows this crisis for the same reason He permits us to be tempted, namely, for the sake of our purification ...

    Not only that, but Modernism and heresy had been so entrenched in the Church in the years leading up to Vatican II, that the only real way to purge the rot from the body was to lead Traditional Catholics out of it.  In the Book of Revelation, God tells his faithful to get out from the Whore of Babylon, the Conciliar Church.  Outside the Conciliar Church, we can avoid the festering rot that was there poisoning Catholics without their awareness.  So God decided to make it clear and expose the Conciliar Church for what it was.  God is using the Traditional Catholic movement to separate the wheat from the chaff, the Traditional Catholics from the Conciliar Church.  Going in the other direction, getting the Modernists out of the Catholic Church, would have entailed removing 99% of all the bishops and clergy, and probably 90% of the "faithful".