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Author Topic: Bergoglio an antipope  (Read 9496 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Bergoglio an antipope
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2023, 10:08:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 29, 2023, 09:42:33 AM
    Please explain to me what is the purpose of having a pope/papacy?
    To govern according to Catholic principles, adhering to the traditions and precedents of his predecessors, teach the true Gospel of Christ, shepherd over the flock requiring them to do what Christ commanded. Essentially speak and preach for the Church. God gave him supreme and universal authority in order that he might do these things. God did not make him impeccable upon acceptance of his election.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #61 on: September 29, 2023, 10:21:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on September 29, 2023, 09:48:17 AM
    Lad succinctly summarized the "truths, principle, laws, and rules of the Church" to which you are bound by your "Pope."

    Follow your anti-Popolatry to its logical conclusion—anti-Catholicism.
    Again, it actually is as I said Mark. I've come to believe that sedes have a blind spot because here again, what I wrote and what you just replied to are apples and oranges, as if I did not write anything at all. In the past I noted this phenomena whenever the pope is discussed, as having this discussion within the Tower of Babble.

    The highest of all the Church's principles is in my signature. This principle Lad and i assume all sedes scoff at it since Lad has called it: "Hesse's principle" after Fr. Hesse, who mentioned it at the beginning of one of his conferences. So whenever the pope wants to bind us to something wrong, the highest principle in the Church teaches us, demands of us and assures us that we are not bound to it. It's not at all complicated.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #62 on: September 29, 2023, 10:36:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 29, 2023, 10:08:46 AM
    To govern according to Catholic principles, adhering to the traditions and precedents of his predecessors, teach the true Gospel of Christ, shepherd over the flock requiring them to do what Christ commanded. Essentially speak and preach for the Church. God gave him supreme and universal authority in order that he might do these things. God did not make him impeccable upon acceptance of his election.

    So, I assume we agree that Bergoglio does none of those things. Now, if he doesn’t fulfill a single part of his duty, what is purpose?
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #63 on: September 29, 2023, 10:39:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 29, 2023, 10:21:16 AM
    The highest of all the Church's principles is in my signature.

    That's a false and subjective statement of the principle, making you no different than any Prot or Old Catholic or heretic.  ALL of these CLAIM that they are obeying God and that the Catholic Church has become corrupt.  But God established the Papacy and the Papal Magisterium precisely in order to be that interpreter of Tradition.  Your approach of appealing to "Tradition" is no different than any Prot's appeal to "Sacred Scripture," except that you have 2 sources of Revelation instead of just their 1.  As St. Thomas explains, this effectively makes your own mind into your rule of faith, and it's destructive of supernatural faith.  You've fallen into a heretical and non-Catholic mindset, and you need to pray to be lifted out of it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #64 on: September 29, 2023, 10:40:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 29, 2023, 10:36:11 AM
    So, I assume we agree that Bergoglio does none of those things. Now, if he doesn’t fulfill a single part of his duty, what is purpose?

    While he's at it, perhaps he can also explain what the purpose of the papacy is in general, when you can just take or leave whatever popes say.
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    Online Mark 79

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #65 on: September 29, 2023, 10:44:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 29, 2023, 09:43:47 AM
    You can put his picture up in the vestibule and say, "Look, the pope!"  And, more importantly, you can say "We're not wicked sedevacantists."
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    Online Mark 79

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #66 on: September 29, 2023, 10:49:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 29, 2023, 10:21:16 AM
    Again, it actually is as I said Mark. I've come to believe ……

    … a solid track record of errors. 

    Even your bait and switch of impeccability with infallibility is a glaring error and a straw man. Nobody advanced a claim that even a true Pope is impeccable.

    Feel free to remain Stubborn in your errors. You will get no traction with errors.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #67 on: September 29, 2023, 10:54:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 29, 2023, 09:43:47 AM
    You can put his picture up in the vestibule and say, "Look, the pope!"  And, more importantly, you can say "We're not wicked sedevacantists."
    And this is really the truth of the matter.  It is much easier to point the blame at sedes for the "division" in the Church than to point it at their pope.   
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #68 on: September 29, 2023, 11:30:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 29, 2023, 10:36:11 AM
    So, I assume we agree that Bergoglio does none of those things. Now, if he doesn’t fulfill a single part of his duty, what is purpose?
    The purpose for him being the pope does not change just because he's a 100% disaster and has a diabolical purpose of his own, and before God he will answer for what he's doing. That much is certain.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #69 on: September 29, 2023, 11:32:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 29, 2023, 10:39:28 AM
    That's a false and subjective statement of the principle, making you no different than any Prot or Old Catholic or heretic.  ALL of these CLAIM that they are obeying God and that the Catholic Church has become corrupt.  But God established the Papacy and the Papal Magisterium precisely in order to be that interpreter of Tradition.  Your approach of appealing to "Tradition" is no different than any Prot's appeal to "Sacred Scripture," except that you have 2 sources of Revelation instead of just their 1.  As St. Thomas explains, this effectively makes your own mind into your rule of faith, and it's destructive of supernatural faith.  You've fallen into a heretical and non-Catholic mindset, and you need to pray to be lifted out of it.
    Yes, of course it's false and subjective to you and only to you (and other sedes), otherwise it defeats the the whole purpose of sedeism - you can't have that.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #70 on: September 29, 2023, 11:42:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on September 29, 2023, 10:49:20 AM
    … a solid track record of errors.

    Even your bait and switch of impeccability with infallibility is a glaring error and a straw man. Nobody advanced a claim that even a true Pope is impeccable.

    Feel free to remain Stubborn in your errors. You will get no traction with errors.
    Well Mark, at least I remain faithful to the dogma, so I at least have that going for me. Good luck if that's an error to you. But please consider that I'm not the one entrapped in a self imposed conundrum.

    To say  the pope is impeccable is to say the pope cannot sin, which is to deny the pope any possibility of ever preaching heresies, which is a sin.
    Because Christ and the Church are one and the same, just as Christ cannot be destroyed, the Church can never be destroyed, another way to say this is to say that the Church is indefectible. I think even Lad "the indefectibilist" would agree with this, but maybe not, who knows?

    Sedes usually believe or insist that the pope and the Church are one and the same because they confuse the head of the Church with it's vicar.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #71 on: September 29, 2023, 12:15:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 29, 2023, 10:54:24 AM
    And this is really the truth of the matter.  It is much easier to point the blame at sedes for the "division" in the Church than to point it at their pope. 
    No 2V, it's simple facts. Yes, the pope is a heretic and is one cause, likely even the primary cause of disunity within the Church as far as the whole Church is concerned, but before anyone knew that it even was the pope that perpetrated the NO in the 60s, the division was taking hold and happening in one dioceses after another,  because an entirely new way of praying was introduced and accepted by many, causing an entirely new way of believing among many.

    It's the different beliefs that disunified then, and it's the different beliefs that disunify now. The sede belief is a doctrine to sedes, even a dogma to some sedes, but to non-sedes it's a useless idea at best. Hence, the disunity between sedes and non sedes is caused by a different belief held by sedes but blamed on the (non) pope.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #72 on: September 29, 2023, 12:22:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 29, 2023, 11:30:34 AM
    The purpose for him being the pope does not change just because he's a 100% disaster and has a diabolical purpose of his own, and before God he will answer for what he's doing. That much is certain.

    So, basically what you are saying is that we really don’t need him or any pope for that matter. Correct?
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #73 on: September 29, 2023, 12:52:28 PM »
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    So, basically what you are saying is that we really don’t need him or any pope for that matter. Correct?
    Not an unreasonable question, and one that many are probably asking.  Jesus said, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I shall build my church."  That was two thousand years ago.  Christ did build His Church over that period of time.  Has He finished building His Church?  I don't know.  But if there is more building to be done, I can assure you it will not be done through Francis.  Francis tears down.  He does not build up.  We really do not need Francis, for sure.  

    But we do need a pope, I think, to fulfill the Fatima message: to fully consecrate Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart and to reveal the Third Secret, and to secure Mary's final victory.  Such a pope, I am certain, is not Bergoglio.  That must be some future pope.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #74 on: September 29, 2023, 01:14:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 29, 2023, 10:39:28 AM
    That's a false and subjective statement of the principle, making you no different than any Prot or Old Catholic or heretic.  ALL of these CLAIM that they are obeying God and that the Catholic Church has become corrupt.  But God established the Papacy and the Papal Magisterium precisely in order to be that interpreter of Tradition.  Your approach of appealing to "Tradition" is no different than any Prot's appeal to "Sacred Scripture," except that you have 2 sources of Revelation instead of just their 1.  As St. Thomas explains, this effectively makes your own mind into your rule of faith, and it's destructive of supernatural faith.  You've fallen into a heretical and non-Catholic mindset, and you need to pray to be lifted out of it.

    excellent!
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?
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