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Author Topic: Bergoglio an antipope  (Read 9544 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bergoglio an antipope
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2023, 06:25:00 AM »
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  • This nonchalant disregard for the papacy, is what really disturbs me about the hazardous path the the R&R position has taken in recent years. They have made the papacy superfluous.

    Yes, people don't understand that this here is the core problem.  It's less about the details regarding whether this or that guy is or is not the pope, but about the principles involved.  If someone wanted to hold that Jorge Bergoglio is the legitimate pope but that the real Jorge is drugged and locked away in a dungeon, while he's replaced with a double, while I might disagree, I have no theological objection to it.  I have zero objections to Father Chazal's sede-impoundism, nor to Archbishop Lefebvre's position if correctly understood.  +Lefebvre repeatedly affirmed that the protection of the Holy Ghost over the papacy would preclude a pope from wrecking the Church this badly, but he stopped short of SVism because he didn't feel that he had sufficient certainty to explain how this all could have happened.  He actually agrees with SVs regarding the MAJOR of the SV syllogism.  I have the audio where he says (to SVs), "I agree with you," that the Holy Ghost protects the papacy and could not let this happen.  I mean, is it out of the realm of possibility, for instance, that Montini was being blackmailed on account of sodomy?  Not really.  So we have much less certainty regarding the MINOR than we do about the MAJOR.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #46 on: September 29, 2023, 07:14:11 AM »
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  • Sedes forget that it is Christ who is the head of the Church, not the pope, which is to say that with today's crisis, we are to follow the rules and laws of the Church's Head, which is Christ, not the pope when he goes contrary. And contrary to the sede mindset, Christ and the pope are not one and the same, it is Christ and the Church that are one and the same. We can never separate Christ from the Church because the two are one, and being one makes the Church, which is Christ, indefectible - which makes that another issue that we do not concern ourselves with.
    A more complete explanation…




    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #47 on: September 29, 2023, 07:22:49 AM »
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  • A more complete explanation…
    Explanation understood and accepted, but I did not say anything contrary to that explanation for the reason that I believe that explanation is certainly true.

     

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #48 on: September 29, 2023, 07:40:52 AM »
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  • Yes, people don't understand that this here is the core problem.  It's less about the details regarding whether this or that guy is or is not the pope, but about the principles involved.  
    As time goes on, I believe less and less that people "don't understand".  Protestants don't care who the pope is or what the pope says and does.  Catholics do.... or at least should.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #49 on: September 29, 2023, 07:41:46 AM »
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  • Any true Catholic should be focused on who Bergoglio really is.  Is he our pope, or is he an evil imposter?  I think that I'm forced by the evidence to admit the latter.
    Thank you for your humility and honesty.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #50 on: September 29, 2023, 07:49:26 AM »
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  • Sedes forget that it is Christ who is the head of the Church, not the pope, which is to say that with today's crisis, we are to follow the rules and laws of the Church's Head, which is Christ, not the pope when he goes contrary. And contrary to the sede mindset, Christ and the pope are not one and the same, it is Christ and the Church that are one and the same. We can never separate Christ from the Church because the two are one, and being one makes the Church, which is Christ, indefectible - which makes that another issue that we do not concern ourselves with.


    No Catholic can deny that Christ is the head of the Church, but this is exactly what Protestants say in order to demean the papacy. You and they (the Protestants) NEED to destroy the holy office of the papacy in order to reconcile what you and they believe is the correct way Christ established His Church.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #51 on: September 29, 2023, 07:56:11 AM »
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  • Pope is Christ's Vicar, and when we have one, for all intents and purposes related to teaching authority and jurisdiction, he IS Christ.  What he binds on earth is bound in Heaven.  If people believe that Jorge is pope, his edict to restrict the Tridentine Mass is now bound in Heaven.  Or perhaps Our Lord didn't really mean it.  What you bind on earth is bound in Heaven, if Stubborn gives the OK for it.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #52 on: September 29, 2023, 08:00:22 AM »
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  • if Stubborn gives the OK for it.

    And this is exactly what it amounts to, doesn’t it?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #53 on: September 29, 2023, 08:45:52 AM »
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  • No Catholic can deny that Christ is the head of the Church, but this is exactly what Protestants say in order to demean the papacy. You and they (the Protestants) NEED to destroy the holy office of the papacy in order to reconcile what you and they believe is the correct way Christ established His Church.
    Prots believe we worship Mary too, they also believe, like sedes, that we're supposed to obey the pope blindly - that is, until popes say something that destroys or threatens sedeism, then it only applies when the pope is the pope.

    Don't tell me what prots believe, I don't care. The dogma states it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the pope, period. Sedes conveniently add the disclaimer that the dogma is dependent up whether we believe he's the pope or not - just as if that is something they can do - because the pope is not the pope of course. Good luck with that, I  truly hope it works, I really do.

    The pope is not the head of the Church, accept that.
    Those who follow these heretical popes into perdition, do so of their own free will - just as you would have were it not for the grace of God you corresponded to, accept that.
    The graces that you accepted, the whole rest of the NO world willfully rejected and still reject, and will reject - of their own free will, accept that.
     
    No pope/non-pope/heretical usurper pope with all the heretical NO bishops, cardinals and priests are able to destroy the Church, not even were it to go on for 10000 years if this world lasts that long, any more than they could destroy Christ.

    If, God forbid, you do not make it to heaven, it will not be because heretics have sat in the Chair.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #54 on: September 29, 2023, 08:53:28 AM »
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  • Pope is Christ's Vicar, and when we have one, for all intents and purposes related to teaching authority and jurisdiction, he IS Christ.  What he binds on earth is bound in Heaven.  If people believe that Jorge is pope, his edict to restrict the Tridentine Mass is now bound in Heaven.  Or perhaps Our Lord didn't really mean it.  What you bind on earth is bound in Heaven, if Stubborn gives the OK for it.
    The lengths sedes go to in order to justify their doctrine continues to amaze. It is as DL, God bless him, said - there is a whole lot more to sedeism than a vacant chair....if you have to ignore or reject all the other truths, principles, laws and rules of the Church and faith to maintain that one idea, so be it.  :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #55 on: September 29, 2023, 09:34:35 AM »
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  • As time goes on, I believe less and less that people "don't understand".  Protestants don't care who the pope is or what the pope says and does.  Catholics do.... or at least should.
    Jorge's antics are a damaging cudgel used by Prots who hate Catholicism. He truly is a destroyer and was not canonically elected. He certainly is qualified to fulfill St. Francis' prophesy. It is thus no small irony that the man "subsisting in" the Chair of Peter chose "Francis" as his stage name.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #56 on: September 29, 2023, 09:40:44 AM »
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  • There is a diabolical synod coming up.  It is filled with the most unholy evil agendas ever.  …

    Perhaps we will be blessed with Jorge's unceremonious death in time to avoid the satanic synod, something akin to the death of Arius facedown in a public toilet. Even better, maybe when he opens his wicked mouth a bolt of lightning turns him into a pillar of smoking brimstone. A clear message from Heaven.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #57 on: September 29, 2023, 09:42:33 AM »
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  • Prots believe we worship Mary too, they also believe, like sedes, that we're supposed to obey the pope blindly - that is, until popes say something that destroys or threatens sedeism, then it only applies when the pope is the pope.

    Don't tell me what prots believe, I don't care. The dogma states it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the pope, period. Sedes conveniently add the disclaimer that the dogma is dependent up whether we believe he's the pope or not - just as if that is something they can do - because the pope is not the pope of course. Good luck with that, I  truly hope it works, I really do.

    The pope is not the head of the Church, accept that.
    Those who follow these heretical popes into perdition, do so of their own free will - just as you would have were it not for the grace of God you corresponded to, accept that.
    The graces that you accepted, the whole rest of the NO world willfully rejected and still reject, and will reject - of their own free will, accept that.
     
    No pope/non-pope/heretical usurper pope with all the heretical NO bishops, cardinals and priests are able to destroy the Church, not even were it to go on for 10000 years if this world lasts that long, any more than they could destroy Christ.

    If, God forbid, you do not make it to heaven, it will not be because heretics have sat in the Chair.

    Please explain to me what is the purpose of having a pope/papacy?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #58 on: September 29, 2023, 09:43:47 AM »
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  • Please explain to me what is the purpose of having a pope/papacy?

    You can put his picture up in the vestibule and say, "Look, the pope!"  And, more importantly, you can say "We're not wicked sedevacantists."

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #59 on: September 29, 2023, 09:48:17 AM »
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  • The lengths sedes go to in order to justify their doctrine continues to amaze. It is as DL, God bless him, said - there is a whole lot more to sedeism than a vacant chair....if you have to ignore or reject all the other truths, principles, laws and rules of the Church and faith to maintain that one idea, so be it.  :facepalm:

    Lad succinctly summarized the "truths, principle, laws, and rules of the Church" to which you are bound by your "Pope."


    That's not correct.  SVism holds that they are usurpers, illegitimate, etc. because the Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the One True Church of Christ, and the papacy is protected by the Holy Ghost from substantially altering the Church into something that lacks these marks.

    We have a corrupt Magisterium, an entirely novel and non-Catholic system of theology (not just a few isolated statement in Vatican II), a novel non-Catholic ecclesiology where the schismatic and heretical "Churches" can be part of the Church of Christ, a complete and consistent rejection of EENS dogma (culminating in Jorge's recent declaration of schismatic "martyrs", verbatim contradicting the teaching of the Council of Florence that there can be no salvation outside the Church even if one were to shed his blood for Christ), the promotion of religious indifferentism.

    We have a "Mass" that differs not a lick from Cranmer's abomination and is consistent with Luther's butchery of the Catholic Mass, complete with a replacement of the Catholic Offertory (which Luther hated with a passion), replacing it with a тαℓмυdic "table blessing".

    We have masses of obviously bogus canonizations, and popes are also prevented by the Holy Ghost from issuing bogus canonizations.

    There's nothing in the Conciliar Church that resembles the mark of "Holiness" nor "Oneness", as there as as many heresies floating out there as there are Conciliar bishops.  Jorge promotes the heretics and Modernists and punishes the relatively-faithful bishops like Strickland.

    If St. Pius X had been time-warped forward to today and been shown the Conciliar Church, would he have recognized it as the Catholic Church had he not been told that it was?  Absolutely not.  Ergo, the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.  It's as simple as that, and one need not have a degree in theology to dissect the propositions of Vatican II.  Simple faithful can see that.  When I first became a Traditional Catholic, I read a book by St. Alphonsus Liguori and realized, without any theological analysis, that the faith this man exhibits in his books is not the same faith and the same religion that the Conciliar Church puts into practice.

    Follow your anti-Popolatry to its logical conclusion—anti-Catholicism.