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Author Topic: Bergoglio an antipope  (Read 9576 times)

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Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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Re: Bergoglio an antipope
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2023, 01:50:58 AM »
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    • Douay-Rheims Bible
    And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 


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    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #31 on: September 28, 2023, 05:49:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on September 28, 2023, 01:41:42 AM
    More Catholic clergy and Catholic laity
    should publicly rebuke Mr. Bergolio as Father Altman did.  How many traditional Catholic clergy and laity are rebuking Mr. Bergolio.  Mr. Bergolio is a communist who rejects Jesus.  He believes and promotes  a false gospel. 

    Just because more Catholic clergy and Catholic laity aren't Youtube celebrities, that doesn't mean they aren't "rebuking" or, rather, "calling out" Jorge for who he is.  According to Meg, sedevacantists "control" this forum.
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    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #32 on: September 28, 2023, 11:36:16 AM »
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    Lad: According to Meg, sedevacantists "control" this forum.


    Just relax.  The control of this forum should not be the issue.  Who cares who controls the so-called 'forum.'  Any true Catholic should be focused on who Bergoglio really is.  Is he our pope, or is he an evil imposter?  I think that I'm forced by the evidence to admit the latter.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #33 on: September 28, 2023, 03:30:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: hollingsworth on September 28, 2023, 11:36:16 AM

    Just relax.  The control of this forum should not be the issue.  Who cares who controls the so-called 'forum.'  Any true Catholic should be focused on who Bergoglio really is.  Is he our pope, or is he an evil imposter?  I think that I'm forced by the evidence to admit the latter.

    You missed my point, which was a reference to the fact that there are numerous SVs on this forum who agree with Jorge being an imposter / usurper / viper, etc., who have been saying these things about Jorge for years before Fr. Altman did.  Viva was asking why more Catholics don't call him out, and I was saying that many of us do.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #34 on: September 28, 2023, 03:46:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: hollingsworth on September 28, 2023, 11:36:16 AM

    Just relax.  The control of this forum should not be the issue.  Who cares who controls the so-called 'forum.'  Any true Catholic should be focused on who Bergoglio really is.  Is he our pope, or is he an evil imposter?  I think that I'm forced by the evidence to admit the latter.

    Why do we have to focus so much on Francis and "who he really is?" Does that really matter in the grand scheme of things, and why? Is there really so little else to talk about? After all, what can we really do about the status of the Pope? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #35 on: September 28, 2023, 03:48:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 28, 2023, 05:49:26 AM
    Just because more Catholic clergy and Catholic laity aren't Youtube celebrities, that doesn't mean they aren't "rebuking" or, rather, "calling out" Jorge for who he is.  According to Meg, sedevacantists "control" this forum.

    They do control the forum. That's just how it is. R&R is barely tolerated here. It didn't used to be that way. But when you provide a protected class with equal rights, they are going to want to control everyone else. It reminds me of the Jєωιѕн mindset, in that they believe that they are better than everyone else. You are fine with that, but I don't have to be.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #36 on: September 28, 2023, 05:50:01 PM »
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    • Quote
    Why do we have to focus so much on Francis and "who he really is?" Does that really matter in the grand scheme of things, and why? Is there really so little else to talk about? After all, what can we really do about the status of the Pope? 
    Yes, it matters greatly in the grand scheme of things.  It matters greatly that the Vicar of Christ might be an antipope, and probably is.  It matters so much that we Catholics can scarcely move forward until the matter is settled.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #37 on: September 28, 2023, 05:55:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: hollingsworth on September 28, 2023, 05:50:01 PM
    Yes, it matters greatly in the grand scheme of things.  It matters greatly that the Vicar of Christ might be an antipope, and probably is.  It matters so much that we Catholics can scarcely move forward until the matter is settled.

    Settled by whom? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #38 on: September 28, 2023, 06:02:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: hollingsworth on September 28, 2023, 05:50:01 PM
    Yes, it matters greatly in the grand scheme of things.  It matters greatly that the Vicar of Christ might be an antipope, and probably is.  It matters so much that we Catholics can scarcely move forward until the matter is settled.

    And if it were settled, where would you be moving forward to? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #39 on: September 28, 2023, 06:10:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: hollingsworth on September 28, 2023, 11:36:16 AM

    Just relax.  The control of this forum should not be the issue.  Who cares who controls the so-called 'forum.'  Any true Catholic should be focused on who Bergoglio really is.  Is he our pope, or is he an evil imposter?  I think that I'm forced by the evidence to admit the latter.

    No one will likely agree with me, but it seems that Satan may be using sedevacantism as a distraction, since some (perhaps many?) sedevacantists here seem to think that the most important aspect of our salvation rests on declaring that Francis is an antipope, and nothing is more important. That's just a little scary, IMO.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #40 on: September 28, 2023, 07:23:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 28, 2023, 06:10:14 PM
    No one will likely agree with me, but it seems that Satan may be using sedevacantism as a distraction, since some (perhaps many?) sedevacantists here seem to think that the most important aspect of our salvation rests on declaring that Francis is an antipope, and nothing is more important. That's just a little scary, IMO.

    Many will likely agree with me, AND it seems that Satan may be using the Novus Ordo as a distraction, since one or two here here seem to think that the most important aspect of our salvation rests on declaring that Francis is a true pope, and nothing is more important. That's just a little obsessive and self-absorbed, IMO.

    [sigh] 

    https://judaism.is/jorge.html

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    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #41 on: September 28, 2023, 08:41:09 PM »
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    • The focus is on Fr. Altman because he is probably the most public figure in U.S. Catholicism to be open about Bergoglio being an antipope. I suspect there are more priests, but none that can afford to be open about it without potential loss of parish or worse.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #42 on: September 29, 2023, 04:36:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 28, 2023, 06:10:14 PM
    No one will likely agree with me, but it seems that Satan may be using sedevacantism as a distraction, since some (perhaps many?) sedevacantists here seem to think that the most important aspect of our salvation rests on declaring that Francis is an antipope, and nothing is more important. That's just a little scary, IMO.
    I agree that sedeism is a distraction, it should be obvious to everyone that the fruit of sedeism is disunity among the faithful, which makes the idea-turned-doctrine iniquitous. But the sedes cannot see it this way for some reason. I think that all the rest of us can do is just hope they guessed correctly, because if they are wrong the price is too high.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #43 on: September 29, 2023, 05:17:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 28, 2023, 03:46:01 PM
    Why do we have to focus so much on Francis and "who he really is?" Does that really matter in the grand scheme of things, and why? Is there really so little else to talk about? After all, what can we really do about the status of the Pope?

    Meg, this is the crux of your problem, you completely misunderstand the importance of the papacy. You also have a dangerous and nearly heretical and possibly schematic conception of the papacy. The pope is not just some elected leader who you can ignore if he is bad or if you don’t like him for some reason. He is the Vicar of Christ, he holds the keys, he is the one who Jesus appointed as head of the Church, the Rock on whom the Church was built. He who hears the pope hears Christ. To paraphrase Venerable Pius IX, he is tradition, he is the Church.

    This nonchalant disregard for the papacy, is what really disturbs me about the hazardous path the the R&R position has taken in recent years. They have made the papacy superfluous. 

    One hugely important reason to know if the man dressed in white is the pope is because if he is a true pope and you knowingly separate yourself from him, you become a schismatic and thus a nonCatholic. Yes, it’s extremely important to know if the man dress in white is really the pope.

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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio an antipope
    « Reply #44 on: September 29, 2023, 05:46:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 29, 2023, 05:17:50 AM
    Meg, this is the crux of your problem, you completely misunderstand the importance of the papacy. You also have a dangerous and nearly heretical and possibly schematic conception of the papacy. The pope is not just some elected leader who you can ignore if he is bad or if you don’t like him for some reason. He is the Vicar of Christ, he holds the keys, he is the one who Jesus appointed as head of the Church, the Rock on whom the Church was built. He who hears the pope hears Christ. To paraphrase Venerable Pius IX, he is tradition, he is the Church.

    This nonchalant disregard for the papacy, is what really disturbs me about the hazardous path the the R&R position has taken in recent years. They have made the papacy superfluous.

    One hugely important reason to know if the man dressed in white is the pope is because if he is a true pope and you knowingly separate yourself from him, you become a schismatic and thus a nonCatholic. Yes, it’s extremely important to know if the man dress in white is really the pope.
    Sedes forget that it is Christ who is the head of the Church, not the pope, which is to say that with today's crisis, we are to follow the rules and laws of the Church's Head, which is Christ, not the pope when he goes contrary. And contrary to the sede mindset, Christ and the pope are not one and the same, it is Christ and the Church that are one and the same. We can never separate Christ from the Church because the two are one, and being one makes the Church, which is Christ, indefectible - which makes that another issue that we do not concern ourselves with. 

     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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