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Author Topic: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived  (Read 11994 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #180 on: July 17, 2021, 06:44:01 AM »
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  • I tend to believe the official severing was in Lumen Gentium when Montini claimed the "Church" subsists in Christ's Church.  

    No, that was just bad doctrine.  In fact, many Traditional Catholics (those who believe that non-Catholics can be saved) do in fact believe in a subsistence ecclesiology.

    What I'm talking about is it being made explicit.  Before you had JP2 and Ratzinger tripping over themselves trying to "reconcile" V2 with Tradition.  At least they paid lip service to Tradition.  Here Bergoglio explicitly and openly repudiates it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #181 on: July 17, 2021, 06:47:38 AM »
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  • Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #182 on: July 17, 2021, 06:50:35 AM »
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  • No, that was just bad doctrine.  In fact, many Traditional Catholics (those who believe that non-Catholics can be saved) do in fact believe in a subsistence ecclesiology.

    What I'm talking about is it being made explicit.  Before you had JP2 and Ratzinger tripping over themselves trying to "reconcile" V2 with Tradition.  At least they paid lip service to Tradition.  Here Bergoglio explicitly and openly repudiates it.
    Regardless of what many believe, how is it not an explicit denial of Outside the Church there is no Salvation?  I still think that is when the actual moment the departure happened.  Bergoglio is just wrapping it up in a pretty bow.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #183 on: July 17, 2021, 07:04:48 AM »
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  • Regardless of what many believe, how is it not an explicit denial of Outside the Church there is no Salvation?  I still think that is when the actual moment the departure happened.  Bergoglio is just wrapping it up in a pretty bow.

    That's wrong.  There's a huge difference between holding a heretical doctrine (while insisting that it's not heretical) and explicitly repudiating the Catholic faith.  Whereas the former suggests material heresy, given that you care about whether your doctrine is compatible with the faith, the latter speaks to FORMAL heresy.  It's like when Bergoglio was chuckling about something he admitted might be heretical.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #184 on: July 17, 2021, 07:14:37 AM »
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  • Here's why I think that the Modernist Heretics finally pulled the trigger.

    They were getting increasingly concerned that the Motu crowd were growing in numbers.  Originally it was intended as a fly trap to suck those back into the Conciliar institution who might otherwise be inclined to become Traditional Catholics.  But it was working in the opposite direction.

    It was intended to make Traditional Catholics less Traditional.  Instead, it was causing Conciliar Catholics to become more Traditional, and it was also serving as a "gateway" to true Traditional Catholicism.  That's why there's this huge emphasis on not having any more, not having newly-ordained priests offer the Tridentine Mass, etc.  They were worried about the growth of the Motarian movement and its slouching toward Tradition.
    This seems like a good analysis.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #185 on: July 17, 2021, 07:29:48 AM »
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  • This seems like a good analysis.

    Yeah, I notice that a lot of the provisions were deliberately geared toward prevent further growth in the Motarian movement.

    I recall that some of the early Indult regulations permitted attendance only for older Catholics who were alive before V2.

    When I first started attending the Tridentine Mass, it was an Indult Mass offered by an old priest.  He told us that the bishop asked if any people under (I think the age was 30 at the time) were attending the Mass, and he said that he responded to the bishop, "I don't know, since I have my back to the congregation the entire time."  So the Cleveland bishop wanted to limit attendance just to the older crowd and didn't want the younger generation exposed to the Mass.  In fact, the Indult Mass was held in the chapel of a nursing home.

    It was only once a month in the afternoon.  One Sunday, an older gentleman approached us and told us that we could have the Tridentine Mass every week ... at the chapel of Fr. Carley in Akron.  So we finally went, and never looked back on the Novus Ordo.  There's enough of that going on where the Modernists are increasingly concerned.

    And I bet they're also worried about the influence that a +Vigano might have on the Motarians, convincing them perhaps that it's OK for a Catholic to repudiate Vatican II and the NOM.  I wonder, with regard to the timing of this, if +Vigano's emergence didn't play into it.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #186 on: July 17, 2021, 08:05:40 AM »
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  • Well, I won’t be forced to attend it or accept Vat. II, I cannot be re-educated, and no more TLM makes no practical difference in my life, at least.  I have no access to true Mass or Sacraments as it has been intermittently since 2018, and entirely since March 2020.  
    PM me please

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #187 on: July 17, 2021, 08:07:09 AM »
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  • This lays out exactly what I've been saying.

    It's very obvious that Bergoglio was attempting/intending to abrogate the Tridentine Mass, and at the same time he declared those who considered V2 and the NOM illegitimate to be outside the Church.
    Same as all the conciliar popes, this is nothing new. The only thing new is he says it a bit more clearly than the other popes, but just a bit.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #188 on: July 17, 2021, 08:41:17 AM »
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  • Yeah, I notice that a lot of the provisions were deliberately geared toward prevent further growth in the Motarian movement.

    I recall that some of the early Indult regulations permitted attendance only for older Catholics who were alive before V2.

    When I first started attending the Tridentine Mass, it was an Indult Mass offered by an old priest.  He told us that the bishop asked if any people under (I think the age was 30 at the time) were attending the Mass, and he said that he responded to the bishop, "I don't know, since I have my back to the congregation the entire time."  So the Cleveland bishop wanted to limit attendance just to the older crowd and didn't want the younger generation exposed to the Mass.  In fact, the Indult Mass was held in the chapel of a nursing home.

    It was only once a month in the afternoon.  One Sunday, an older gentleman approached us and told us that we could have the Tridentine Mass every week ... at the chapel of Fr. Carley in Akron.  So we finally went, and never looked back on the Novus Ordo.  There's enough of that going on where the Modernists are increasingly concerned.

    And I bet they're also worried about the influence that a +Vigano might have on the Motarians, convincing them perhaps that it's OK for a Catholic to repudiate Vatican II and the NOM.  I wonder, with regard to the timing of this, if +Vigano's emergence didn't play into it.
    Very interesting story. I believe Father Carley is still around, is that correct?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #189 on: July 17, 2021, 09:55:59 AM »
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  • Very interesting story. I believe Father Carley is still around, is that correct?

    Yes, he's about, I think, 85, and still offers daily Mass and confession ... solid as rock.  Apart from when he was out for a few weeks with hip replacement (which is fatal to many elderly), I don't think he's missed a day in over 30 years.  He still goes out to mow his own grass and do yardwork and gardening.  Until recently, he would drive about 3 hours every Sunday to Wheeling, VA to take care of a small chapel there.  He ran a school for about 15 years, but that's no longer in service.

    Until the SSPX consecrated bishops, he would get his holy oils from Bishop McKenna.  He's not at all hostile to sedevacantism, believes that the NO is certainly invalid.  When a Novus Ordo hospital chaplain tried to give Communion to one of his "parishioners", he excoriated him for bringing invalid hosts.

    So, I was on his "Board of Trustees" for a while there, but I resigned after Father wanted us to sign papers leaving his chapel to the SSPX.  He felt it was the best option to ensure that the people there would be taken care of.  I warned him that the SSPX would likely sell the property and tell everyone to just go to St. Peregrine.  He just felt as though he had no choice, but I politely declined to sign the papers and resigned from the Board.

    So, during his hip surgery, he needed a replacement and asked the SSPX.  SSPX hemmed and hawed and then finally offered to send a priest for like a 3PM Mass for a couple weeks.  He threatened to take the SSPX off his property will.  So on Christmas day, Bishop Tissier showed up for the 9AM Mass.  Money talks for the SSPX.  But Father was NOT happy, since that was a harbinger of things to come when he passes away.

    So, I recently heard from my brother ... and I don't have all the details ... but the SSPX tried to extort $250,000 from Father Carley.  SSPX St. Peregrine chapel is building a new church (quite a bit closer to his chapel) and evidently the rectory/priory there alone will cost $500,000. So they told Father they wanted half of that amount from him as a condition for taking care of his chapel in the future.  St. Peregrine is another story.  They had raised close to a million dollars over the years in various fund-raising campaigns for a new church, but those funds evaporated ("embezzled" away so to speak by the SSPX, probably diverted to the seminary project).  So they had to start over again with a new fundraiser for the new chapel.  Lots of shady stuff going on there.  I'll try to get details on this latest extortion attempt.

    Father Carley is incredibly frugal ... to a fault perhaps.  I remember serving Mass and having to be alert lest his candles burned down so low that they would tip over (and potentially start a fire).  He burned those things down to nothing.  So Father has a lot of capital saved away from over the years, and the SSPX want to get their hands on it.  Over the years, he acquired a couple of the homes adjacent to the church and used them for various purposes, such as where the Brothers who taught at the school lived, and at a different time a couple of sisters.  One of them is a really nice house.

    I should think that the Resistance might get in touch with him, since Father Carley is absolutely of The Resistance mindset (even borderline sedevacantist).  He's actually on very friendly terms with Father Jenkins (who has a chapel in the Cleveland area).  Not only does Fr. Jenkins not have any issues with his people going to Fr. Carley's for Mass, but a woman from his chapel actually taught at Father Carley's school for several years.

    Father Carley is a very simple man, and not much for theological discussion.  All he knows is "Novus Ordo bad and not Catholic.  New Mass invalid and displeasing to God."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #190 on: July 17, 2021, 10:30:44 AM »
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  • I doubt it.  Most of the people who go to approved TLM’s do so because they have scruples regarding the canonical issues, and therefore, forced to choose between the SSPX or EWTN-style NOM’s, will choose the latter 8/10 times.

    Judging from the comments below the Remnant article (in which most are now contemplating heading for the Eastern Rite churches; not many saying they will go SSPX), I was right:

    https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/5472-we-resist-francis-to-his-face-pachamama-pope-anathematizes-latin-mass
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #191 on: July 17, 2021, 11:10:48 AM »
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  • That's U.S. and maybe Canada.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #192 on: July 17, 2021, 11:32:52 AM »
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  • Judging from the comments below the Remnant article (in which most are now contemplating heading for the Eastern Rite churches; not many saying they will go SSPX), I was right:

    https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/5472-we-resist-francis-to-his-face-pachamama-pope-anathematizes-latin-mass

    No, I'm the one who said they would head toward Eastern Rite rather than the NOM.

    I posted that the number going to SSPX would be higher than your prediction of 20% (that part remains to be seen) and that many of the rest would gravitate toward the Eastern Rites (rather than NOM).

    You're even wrong about having been right.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #193 on: July 17, 2021, 11:36:22 AM »
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  • If I had to guess numbers, I would say:

    30% toward SSPX
    50% toward Eastern Rites
    18% NOM
    2% Sedevacantist

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #194 on: July 17, 2021, 11:38:44 AM »
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  • No, I'm the one who said they would head toward Eastern Rite rather than the NOM.

    I posted that the number going to SSPX would be higher than your prediction of 20% (that part remains to be seen) and that many of the rest would gravitate toward the Eastern Rites (rather than NOM).

    You're even wrong about having been right.

    No:

    On p.8 of this thread, I predicted that faced with SSPX vs EWTN-style NOM alternatives, most would opt for the latter because of hang-ups about canonical issues.

    A couple posts later, Stanley predicted that many would go Byzantine, to which I agreed.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."