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Author Topic: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived  (Read 17275 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #180 on: July 17, 2021, 06:44:01 AM »
I tend to believe the official severing was in Lumen Gentium when Montini claimed the "Church" subsists in Christ's Church.  

No, that was just bad doctrine.  In fact, many Traditional Catholics (those who believe that non-Catholics can be saved) do in fact believe in a subsistence ecclesiology.

What I'm talking about is it being made explicit.  Before you had JP2 and Ratzinger tripping over themselves trying to "reconcile" V2 with Tradition.  At least they paid lip service to Tradition.  Here Bergoglio explicitly and openly repudiates it.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #181 on: July 17, 2021, 06:47:38 AM »


Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #182 on: July 17, 2021, 06:50:35 AM »
No, that was just bad doctrine.  In fact, many Traditional Catholics (those who believe that non-Catholics can be saved) do in fact believe in a subsistence ecclesiology.

What I'm talking about is it being made explicit.  Before you had JP2 and Ratzinger tripping over themselves trying to "reconcile" V2 with Tradition.  At least they paid lip service to Tradition.  Here Bergoglio explicitly and openly repudiates it.
Regardless of what many believe, how is it not an explicit denial of Outside the Church there is no Salvation?  I still think that is when the actual moment the departure happened.  Bergoglio is just wrapping it up in a pretty bow.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #183 on: July 17, 2021, 07:04:48 AM »
Regardless of what many believe, how is it not an explicit denial of Outside the Church there is no Salvation?  I still think that is when the actual moment the departure happened.  Bergoglio is just wrapping it up in a pretty bow.

That's wrong.  There's a huge difference between holding a heretical doctrine (while insisting that it's not heretical) and explicitly repudiating the Catholic faith.  Whereas the former suggests material heresy, given that you care about whether your doctrine is compatible with the faith, the latter speaks to FORMAL heresy.  It's like when Bergoglio was chuckling about something he admitted might be heretical.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #184 on: July 17, 2021, 07:14:37 AM »
Here's why I think that the Modernist Heretics finally pulled the trigger.

They were getting increasingly concerned that the Motu crowd were growing in numbers.  Originally it was intended as a fly trap to suck those back into the Conciliar institution who might otherwise be inclined to become Traditional Catholics.  But it was working in the opposite direction.

It was intended to make Traditional Catholics less Traditional.  Instead, it was causing Conciliar Catholics to become more Traditional, and it was also serving as a "gateway" to true Traditional Catholicism.  That's why there's this huge emphasis on not having any more, not having newly-ordained priests offer the Tridentine Mass, etc.  They were worried about the growth of the Motarian movement and its slouching toward Tradition.
This seems like a good analysis.