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Author Topic: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived  (Read 11991 times)

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Offline Jr1991

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #135 on: July 16, 2021, 05:41:51 PM »
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  • This strengthens the Sedevacantist position even further. 

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #136 on: July 16, 2021, 05:42:42 PM »
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  • As usual, the sede mind has it all backwards:
    What the whole world holds to be true, the burden is on you to refute.

    The whole world holds that covid 19 is an existential threat to the human race.  The whole world holds that the vaccines are safe.  The whole world holds that Catholic doctrine can evolve and even contradict what was previously believed.  No one is disputing that the Novus Ordo sect contradicts traditional Catholic doctrine.  So the burden of proof is on you to prove that a true pope can overthrow Catholic doctrine.  All the doctors of the Church say it is not possible.  You have to prove that all the doctors are wrong.  St Robert is not on your side.  He believed that God would never allow a true pope to fall into heresy.  But he admitted that if he were wrong about that, a heretical pope would ipso facto lose his office.  But no doctor or father of the Church ever believed or taught that a manifest heretic could be ELECTED to the Roman See.  That's insanity.  Almost as insane as you calling Whoregαy, "Your Holiness".  So you have to argue either a) Whoregαy isn't heretical or b) all the doctors of the Church were wrong when they taught that a heretical pope would ipso facto lose office.  (See St Robert, St Alphonsus and St Francis de Sales among others).  But how are you going to prove that a manifest heretic could be ELECTED to the Roman See?  Or that once elected, the heretic's claim on the Roman See is a dogmatic fact?  The gig is up, Sean.  The notorious Siscoe and Salza are sunk.  For the sake of your own sanity, you need to break out of the Stockholm Syndrome attitude that has entangled you with a disgusting perverted heretic who claims the Roman See.  His claim is no more believable (nay, less believable) than Pope Michael's claim in Kansas.  Anyone who thinks Whoregαy is the pope is certifiable.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #137 on: July 16, 2021, 05:49:13 PM »
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  • The whole world holds that CÖVÌD 19 is an existential threat to the human race.  The whole world holds that the vaccines are safe.  The whole world holds that Catholic doctrine can evolve and even contradict what was previously believed.  No one is disputing that the Novus Ordo sect contradicts traditional Catholic doctrine.  So the burden of proof is on you to prove that a true pope can overthrow Catholic doctrine.  All the doctors of the Church say it is not possible.  You have to prove that all the doctors are wrong.  St Robert is not on your side.  He believed that God would never allow a true pope to fall into heresy.  But he admitted that if he were wrong about that, a heretical pope would ipso facto lose his office.  But no doctor or father of the Church ever believed or taught that a manifest heretic could be ELECTED to the Roman See.  That's insanity.  Almost as insane as you calling Whoregαy, "Your Holiness".  So you have to argue either a) Whoregαy isn't heretical or b) all the doctors of the Church were wrong when they taught that a heretical pope would ipso facto lose office.  (See St Robert, St Alphonsus and St Francis de Sales among others).  But how are you going to prove that a manifest heretic could be ELECTED to the Roman See?  Or that once elected, the heretic's claim on the Roman See is a dogmatic fact?  The gig is up, Sean.  The notorious Siscoe and Salza are sunk.  For the sake of your own sanity, you need to break out of the Stockholm Syndrome attitude that has entangled you with a disgusting perverted heretic who claims the Roman See.  His claim is no more believable (nay, less believable) than Pope Michael's claim in Kansas.  Anyone who thinks Whoregαy is the pope is certifiable.
    😂😂😂 👍👍👍
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #138 on: July 16, 2021, 05:52:34 PM »
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  • Even if the doctrine of John of St. Thomas is someday defined by the magisterium, (note: since it's a doctrine of a theologian and not the magisterium, faithful Catholics can yet disagree with it and remain Catholic (this does not convict Sedevacantists)). It pertains to the actual ɛƖɛctıon being valid and not the resignation being valid. Had Pope Benedict's resignation been valid, Francis's ɛƖɛctıon would have been valid, according to this docuмent.
    If John of St. Thomas is correct, was he not trumped by Pope Paul IV who was dealing with invalid ɛƖɛctıons of publicly manifest heretics and schismatics? Those who dismiss that as not the magisterium have a lot of explaining to do. Since the magisterium already deals with the question of some of those who cannot be validly elected, how can John of St. Thomas define something contrary?
    As far as intention, if it's not stated publicly ahead of time they did not intend to do what the Church does,  it's valid even if privately they did not intend it to be. Otherwise, no Eucharistic miracle could occur when a priest privately doubts the dogma of Transubstantiation.
     
    Where John of St. Thomas has some merit, is, if no cardinals are pointing out the rules of the ɛƖɛctıon have been discarded, but remain silent as someone is presented as newly elected, then you can have a valid pope with a privately invalid ɛƖɛctıon process.

    Right.  The process was controversial, especially when Catholic kings and princes were meddling in it.  So theologians were affirming that even if the process is corrupt, the end result is still good.  But they never allowed that a manifest heretic could legitimately claim the office.  That's absurd.  But that's exactly what R&R has to argue today.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #139 on: July 16, 2021, 06:30:19 PM »
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  • Louis Verrecchio's take on Frank's Motu Proprio

    via akaCatholic:

    Quote
    The long-rumored Motu Proprio of Francis the Infelicitous restricting the Traditional Latin Mass was finally issued and it doesn’t disappoint – that is, if you’re like me and welcome anything that makes it more difficult for the sincerely blind to deny the reality that Jorge Bergoglio, far from being Holy Father, is an enemy of the Catholic faith.

    Here, I will get straight to the highlights. I’ll have more to say on smaller details later.

    Without even surfing the web for headlines, I’m rather certain that the big story as reported by most in Catholic media will be Francis abrogates Summorum Pontificuм!

    Indeed, he has:

    "Art. 8. Previous norms, instructions, permissions, and customs that do not conform to the provisions of the present Motu Proprio are abrogated."

    As expected, however, the Devil is in the details (as well as in the Vatican). The real story here is that Jorge Bergoglio is “abrogating” (to the extent that a non-Catholic posing as a pope can do anything) the Traditional Roman Rite itself. Yes, you read that correctly:

    "Art. 1. The liturgical books promulgated by Saint Paul VI and Saint John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, are the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite."

    Pay close attention: unique expression… 

    According to the “pope” of the counterfeit church, there is only one form of the Roman Rite – the earthbound, man-centered, Novus Ordo

    So, what does that make the Mass of Ages? 

    It makes it not the Roman Rite. From this point forward in the conciliar church, it’s not even an “Extraordinary Form” of the Roman Rite, rather, it’s no rite of that church at all. 

    That’s called abrogation, folks.

    Even so, there will be many deniers of the obvious. Let’s consider some of their objections.

    But he never says, I hereby abrogate the Latin Mass!

    I genuinely pity the poor fool who seeks shelter in this childish excuse. The Evil One and his minions don’t operate that way. The Devil is a liar and a deceiver, cunning at maneuvering in the shadows to avoid discovery, poisoning the naive in unexpected ways.

    Even so, in his letter to bishops accompanying the Motu Proprio, Bergoglio states:

    "I take comfort in this decision from the fact that, after the Council of Trent, St. Pius V also abrogated all the rites that could not claim a proven antiquity, establishing for the whole Latin Church a single Missale Romanum."

    Again, pay close attention: “also abrogated all the rites.” In other words: My predecessor abrogated certain rites. I’m abrogating just one, the Traditional Roman Rite!

    Still, the deniers will object:

    But he will still allow it to be celebrated even if restricted!

    OK, but exactly what is “it”? Answer: Not the Roman Rite but rather the former Roman Rite that is presently abrogated.

    You see, for Bergoglio, this is like granting highly restricted, temporary permission for the faithful to participate in any non-Catholic rite.

    This is the same guy who welcomed Pachamama idol worship into the Vatican! Does anyone really think that limited tolerance of the TLM until such time as it is fully banished from the dioceses bothers him? Of course not, it’s something he’ll put up with, but only for a time. His letter to the bishops makes this clear:

    "…those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and need to return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II. [Emphasis added]"  

    You know the drill, pay attention: need to return… It’s not optional.

    Sure, the pseudo-trads and neo-cons will initially express outrage at the death of Summorum Pontificuм, followed by concern for the future, followed by hope for the future, followed by pep talks about how the faithful must soldier on in spite of these persecutions that Christ is allowing at the hands of His Vicar. What a mystery! 

    In short, many of them will shuck and jive their rear ends off in order to deny the plain reality of the matter: The man that they call “Pope Francis” has just officially abrogated the Traditional Latin Mass from the conciliar church over which he rules.

    The reason they will twist themselves into knots denying this reality is because to acknowledge it is to acknowledge some difficult truths. For instance, how often has it been said “the TLM was never abrogated!” as if this supported the preposterous notion that the conciliar counterfeit church really is the one true Church of Christ, in spite of its corrupt faith and morals.

    But there’s an even bigger, more uncomfortable truth staring the deniers in the face, if only they would open their eyes.

    Any putative pope that would move to abrogate the Mass of Ages cannot be but an antipope. It’s time to acknowledge reality: Jorge Bergoglio isn’t a Catholic of any rank, much less is he the Vicar of Christ. 

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #140 on: July 16, 2021, 06:30:39 PM »
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  • My most sincere hope, is that Francis will very soon leave office (one way or the other), and his successor will take this horrible motu proprio and put it right through the shredder, tell the faithful (in so many words) "forget this ever happened, think of it as a bad dream, we're going back to Summorum pontificuм".
    Actually that would be the worst thing to happen because then people will be tricked into remaining in the Vatican II sect.  We don't need another "more conservative/less Modernist" "pope".

    Offline Username

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #141 on: July 16, 2021, 06:37:52 PM »
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  • 😂😂😂 👍👍👍
    I hope and pray that Sean makes his way out of the blasphemous and anti-Catholic position which holds that Christ's vicar can be a heresiarch like Mr Bergoglio.  It's a horrible thing to say about the Papacy, and the Mystical Body of Christ.  I do not mean to give offense in this, but it must be said.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #142 on: July 16, 2021, 06:39:47 PM »
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  • Well, I guess these are more fruits of R&R.  Despite the fact that the Church has always allowed married priests in the East, people know better.  Married priests in the East are not some invention of the Modernists.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #143 on: July 16, 2021, 06:41:41 PM »
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  • "Heresy" isn't even the right word for Berogoglio.  He's a shameless apostate.  Just viewed as a whole, the man is unrecognizable as a Catholic and would have been executed by St. Pius X ... if he had that power.  You could possibly make an argument of Ratzinger, but Bergoglio?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #144 on: July 16, 2021, 06:46:35 PM »
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  • Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #145 on: July 16, 2021, 07:10:03 PM »
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  • Actually that would be the worst thing to happen because then people will be tricked into remaining in the Vatican II sect.  We don't need another "more conservative/less Modernist" "pope".
    I am not a sedevacantist (not that I don't have my doubts), and I do not reject the visible, institutional Church of Rome as a non-Catholic sect.  Much as I detest the thought, I accept Francis as Pope, wish I didn't have to, but you're either a sedevacantist or you're not (making allowance for some theories of "the see not fully vacant, yet not fully occupied either", materialiter-formaliter, Cassiciacuм thesis, et al), and I can't make that call in favor of sede vacante or ecclesia vacante.  I very well could be wrong.

    Matthew is right.  No one knows.  It is up to Almighty God to sort all this out.  I'm reminded here of the quote from Anglican "cleric" William Porcher DuBose that life is like walking barefoot at midnight through a barnyard full of chicken ordure.  That just about nails it.  I have to believe that Our Lord will not hold it to one's charge if, despite one's best efforts, one happens to step the wrong way.


    Offline angelusmaria

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #146 on: July 16, 2021, 07:15:57 PM »
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  • Uhm, it's right there in Bergoglio's letter.
    Bergoglio just abrogated the Tridentine Rite.

    But you guys will desperately keep your blinders on and keep insisting that the Tridentine Rite was never abrogated, and that's why the NOM doesn't violate the Church's disciplinary infallibility.
    Agreed.  I've read through both the Moto and the accompanying letter, and can't understand why some on this thread are insisting nothing really has changed, or that those celebrating the Mass of the Ages will be allowed to continue to do so.  In his accompanying letter where he explicitly states his motivations, Bergoglio clearly outlines:
    "Indications about how to proceed in your dioceses are chiefly dictated by two principles: on the one hand, to provide for the good of those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and need to return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II, and, on the other hand, to discontinue the erection of new personal parishes tied more to the desire and wishes of individual priests than to the real need of the 'holy People of God.'"
    please pray for me

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #147 on: July 16, 2021, 07:58:36 PM »
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  • Another day, another round of betrayal and trying to make sense of a Crisis that won't go away until the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart occurs. Ladies and gentlemen, I may not agree with everything being said here but I heartily sympathize. Whether you believe Bergog Magog is Pope or not, it's still terrible. To me, not quite as horrible as the Pachamama outrage, but any reiteration of what has already been variously enforced over the years still cuts deep.  

    No one has the authority to overturn what the Catholic Church has already established, not even the Pope. But then I am familiar with the Ouroboros of argumentation the leads from that to how we shouldn't ever see a Pope get to that point to what constitutes the "Church" to what constitutes the Magisterium as Pope rightly leads it to the importance of it's visibility and it's continuity. My own theory is that Ancient Pagan Rome has come full circle: From Rome, to Constantinople, to Moscow and back to Rome again. Russia inherited those ancient errors and made them her own and now every corner of the world thinks and believes as she does. I don't think any of us are quite up to task to write up a corrective docuмent which will surely be adopted in a future Restoration, but I think it's only right that it will come from whosoever be worthy to be named Holy Father when the time comes. 

    I only have one question in regards to the current visible/acting Pope: will there be a body to bury when Divine Justice visits him? The bell tolls today for all who call themselves Catholic just as in other times when our visible leaders (accepted or not) play the part of Judas in open view over the past 50 years.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #148 on: July 16, 2021, 08:05:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    "Indications about how to proceed in your dioceses are chiefly dictated by two principles: on the one hand, to provide for the good of those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and need to return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II, and, on the other hand, to discontinue the erection of new personal parishes tied more to the desire and wishes of individual priests than to the real need of the 'holy People of God.'"

    All of this is directed at Modernist bishops, for their Modernist parishes, from the Modernist pope.  It has nothing to do with Tradition.  If you go to a parish church, then you have to abide by these regulations.  If you're a Trad, how does this affect you?  It doesn't.
    .
    It's going back to the same regulations that existed from the 80s til the 2007 motu.  Maybe a little stricter now, but still, about the same.  Before 2007, there were not many TLMs in parishes.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #149 on: July 16, 2021, 08:25:00 PM »
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  • IMAGE: A fan kneels at the entrance to the first Mexico's church in memory of soccer legend Diego Maradona. Photograph: Edgard Garrido/Reuters 
    A pair of large vases bearing soccer balls stand at the entrance to Mexico's first Maradonian church and an image of Diego Maradona wearing a charro hat welcomes worshippers.
    Inside the church, the Catholic Stations of the Cross are recreated with photos of Maradona from his childhood to emblematic meetings with the late Cuban leader Fidel Castro and Pope Francis.
    May God bless you and keep you