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Author Topic: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived  (Read 11966 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2021, 01:13:49 PM »
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  • I’m saying Bellarmine believed it was impossible.

    No, you are evading the question. Is Bergoglio a heretic? A simple yes or no will do.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #91 on: July 16, 2021, 01:19:05 PM »
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  • I really don't know. Unlike the sedes, I know I don't have all of the answers.

    Though I don't think that we humans can solve the Crisis alone, without God's help. We need to somehow be dependent on Him, and not on just ourselves and our beloved opinions.
    You know, my question to you was sincere. The bolded was unnecessary.  


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #92 on: July 16, 2021, 01:24:12 PM »
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  • This didn’t happen.  I don’t know what docuмent you read.  As Sean said, this brings indult back to the 80s.
    Where does JPII imply, like Bergoglio, that all Traditional Catholics are outside the Church?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #93 on: July 16, 2021, 01:27:20 PM »
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  • From an old αnσnymσus post:

    “There are only three theologians in the past eight centuries, that I am aware of, who've written a thorough dissertation on the subject, and Bellarmine is not one of them.   The three are Cajetan, Suarez and John of St. Thomas and these are not lightweights. They were all highly esteemed during their day, as you can see by reading their entries in the Catholic encyclopedia, and all three have continued to be recognized as some of the most respected theologians by the Church.  They wrote extensively on the topic and directly addressed the all relevant question in detail, answering them with scripture, historical examples and canon law.  Unfortunately, Bellarmine never wrote a complete dissertation on the subject, as these did.   All he did was briefly comment on various opinions in one chapter of his book The Roman Pontiff, and briefly touched upon the question in a paragraph or two in other books.  

    Now, there is something in common with all the three theologians who studied the subject in depth, and wrote a thorough dissertations on the subject. They all agreed that the see is not vacant until a declaration is issued by the Church, and they all said this was the common opinion.  They disagreed on precisely how the pope loses his office, but they all agreed that a declaration from the Church was needed before Catholics can withdraw obedience from him.  Bellarmine taught the same when he said the pope must be obeyed in all licit commands until he is legitimately declared not to be pope.  About that there is no disagreement among the theologians.  It is only the sedevecantists who mistakenly believe it is permitted, based, ironically on the teaching Bellarmine, who said it was not permitted!”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #94 on: July 16, 2021, 01:27:28 PM »
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  • Why would it be “more likely Bellarmine was right,” when his actual opinion (ie., a pope can never fall into heresy) was a minority view, while his HYPOTHETICAL ruminations are opposed by so many greats (Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, Suarez, et al)?
    Lol...  Why believe anything anyone says?

      For Saint Robert because he backed up his beliefs with research and undeniable facts. 😅


    Which of any of those others you mentioned made it to sainthood and doctor of the Church?  THAT itself should mean something in of itself. 🙃


    Ever heard of Cardinal Louis Billot?  

    He apparently disagreed with with Cajetan as well.  Yet, he was one of the most esteemed theologians of the 20th century before Vatican II.  ☺️


    Ah...  The world we live in...  😩


    See...  This is why we need a pope who fully fills the office of the papacy and doesn't pretend anything.  That is the ONLY thing that will EVER unite traditional Catholics...


    Except maybe the end of the world.  😜
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #95 on: July 16, 2021, 01:32:30 PM »
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  • Lol...  Why believe anything anyone says?

      For Saint Robert because he backed up his beliefs with research and undeniable facts. 😅


    Which of any of those others you mentioned made it to sainthood and doctor of the Church?  THAT itself should mean something in of itself. 🙃


    Ever heard of Cardinal Louis Billot?  

    He apparently disagreed with with Cajetan as well.  Yet, he was one of the most esteemed theologians of the 20th century before Vatican II.  ☺️


    Ah...  The world we live in...  😩


    See...  This is why we need a pope who fully fills the office of the papacy and doesn't pretend anything.  That is the ONLY thing that will EVER unite traditional Catholics...


    Except maybe the end of the world.  😜

    Per my previous post, why not believe the unanimous opinion of the only 3 theologians to write major dissertations on the subject in the last 800 years?

    Bellarmine only commented hypothetically on the opinions of others.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #96 on: July 16, 2021, 01:36:31 PM »
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  • You know, my question to you was sincere. The bolded was unnecessary.  

    I think it was necessary. So that you understand that I think differently from many sedes on the subject.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #97 on: July 16, 2021, 01:44:39 PM »
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  • This didn’t happen.  I don’t know what docuмent you read.  As Sean said, this brings indult back to the 80s.

    Uhm, it's right there in Bergoglio's letter.
    Quote
    I take the firm decision to abrogate all the norms, instructions, permissions and customs that precede the present Motu proprio, and declare that the liturgical books promulgated by the saintly Pontiffs Paul VI and John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, constitute the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite. I take comfort in this decision from the fact that, after the Council of Trent, St. Pius V also abrogated all the rites that could not claim a proven antiquity, establishing for the whole Latin Church a single Missale Romanum.

    Bergoglio just abrogated the Tridentine Rite.

    But you guys will desperately keep your blinders on and keep insisting that the Tridentine Rite was never abrogated, and that's why the NOM doesn't violate the Church's disciplinary infallibility.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #98 on: July 16, 2021, 01:47:05 PM »
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  • Another αnσnymσus post:

    Council of Constantinople: "As divine scripture clearly proclaims, ‘Do not find fault before you investigate, and understand first and then find fault,’ and does our law judge a person without first giving him a hearing and learning what he does? Consequently this holy and universal synod justly and fittingly declares and lays down that no lay person or monk or cleric should separate himself from communion with his own patriarch before a careful enquiry and judgment in synod, even if he alleges that he knows of some crime perpetrated by his patriarch, and he must not refuse to include his patriarch's name during the divine mysteries or offices. (…) If anyone shall be found defying this holy synod, he is to be debarred from all priestly functions and status if he is a bishop or cleric; if a monk or lay person, he must be excluded from all communion and meetings of the church (excommunicated) until he is converted by repentance and reconciled.”  

    Now we see why Bellarmine said it is necessary to obey the pope until he is legitimately declared to no longer by pope by the judgment of the Church.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #99 on: July 16, 2021, 01:50:52 PM »
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  • “TRADITIONIS CUSTODES”

    The official translation doesn't translate the title. Given the text, it must be "jailers of tradition".
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #100 on: July 16, 2021, 02:08:03 PM »
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  • But Your Holiness, you are doing the exact OPPOSITE of what St. Pius V did...

    Wow.  I didn't expect to see that coming from you.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #101 on: July 16, 2021, 02:21:01 PM »
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  • Cursus Theologicus of John of St. Thomas
    Tome 6.  Questions 1-7 on Faith.  Disputation 8.
    ~ Article 2 ~

    When a pope has been legitimately elected, is it de fide, either per se primo or per se secundo, that this particular person—for instance, Innocent X—is the pope?

    ...

    Efficient Cause

    (Second Objection)



    [Principal Argument/objection] We cannot know with the certainty of faith that these particular electors have a valid intention of electing, nor that they are true and legitimate cardinals, nor that they observed the form of ɛƖɛctıon required by law, such as the requirement that the pope be elected by a two-thirds majority of the cardinals, as well as the other conditions without which the ɛƖɛctıon is null.  The faith does not teach us whether these conditions were met; for, when the ɛƖɛctıon of the pope is first made public, there is no guarantee, no way by which the truths of the faith are made known to us, no revelation or tradition that could make the Church certain, when she accepts the man as pope, that all the conditions were met that are required for a valid ɛƖɛctıon; but she relies on the trustworthiness of the electors themselves who are promulgating the ɛƖɛctıon; therefore, the Church never attains to the certitude of faith regarding the man chosen, that he was legitimately elected.  (…)

    This is because it is not necessary, whenever something of itself pertains to the faith, that all the propositions having a necessary connection with that truth of faith should also be de fide; on the contrary, this is precisely what a theological conclusion is; for theological conclusions are concerned with whatever things have a necessary connection, or logical implication, with de fide truths.  For example, from the truth of faith, “Christ is a man,” proceeds the theological conclusion, “Christ is capable of laughter,” because the capacity to laugh is necessarily connected to being a man.  

    Likewise, because it is de fide that this man in particular, accepted by the Church as canonically elected, is the pope, the theological conclusion is drawn that there were genuine electors, and a real intention of electing, as well as the other requisites, without which the de fide truth could not stand.  Therefore, we have the certainty of faith, by a revelation implicitly contained in the Creed and in the promise made to Peter, and made more explicit in the definition of Martin V, and applied and declared in act (in exercitio) by the acceptance of the Church, that this man in particular, canonically elected according to the acceptance of the Church, is pope.  The certainty of faith touches this alone; and whatever is prerequisite to, or else follows upon, the fact of the ɛƖɛctıon, is inferred as a theological conclusion drawn from the proposition that is de fide, and is believed mediately. (…)

    The Church accepts the ɛƖɛctıon and the elect as a matter of faith, because as she receives him as the infallible rule of faith, and as the supreme head to whom she is united—for the unity of the Church depends upon her union with him.

    To the objection that there must be someone to propose this truth to the Church as de fide, I respond that the ɛƖɛctıon and the one elected are proposed by the cardinals, not in their own person, but in the person of the Church and by her power—for she it is who committed to them the power of electing the pope and of declaring him to have been elected. Wherefore they, in this respect and for this task, are the Church herself representatively. Thus the cardinals, or whoever else are electors legitimately designated by the Church (that is, by the pope), represent the Church in all that concerns the ɛƖɛctıon of her head, the successor of Peter.  Just as the pope gathers the bishops together in a Council, and yet its confirmation and the ultimate sentence in matters of faith depend upon him, so the congregation of cardinals elects the pope, and declares that he has been elected, and yet it is the Church, whose ministers they are, that by its acceptance ultimately confirms as a truth of faith the fact that this man is truly the highest rule of faith and the supreme pontiff.  Wherefore, if the cardinals elect him in a questionable manner, the Church can correct their ɛƖɛctıon, as the Council of Constance determined in its 41st session.  Hence, the proposition is rendered de fide, as already has been explained, by the acceptance of the Church, and that alone, even before the pope himself defines anything.  It is not any acceptance at all of the Church, but the acceptance of the Church in a matter pertaining to the faith, since the pope is accepted as a determinate rule of faith.

    Reply to another objection.  It was argued above, that none of the conditions necessary for the ɛƖɛctıon are externally visible, but that everything takes place in the company of the electors, on whose testimony the Church accepts the pope.  To this I reply that it is not necessary that all those conditions, and the ɛƖɛctıon itself, and the intention of the electors be visible, but only that it be possible for a moral certainty to be had of their [the conditions] accomplishment.  This moral certainty comes of seeing the electors gathered together for the act of electing, and peacefully proposing the man who has been elected, and declaring him such.  As long as no reasonable doubt presents itself, this [i.e., the peaceful ɛƖɛctıon] already suffices for the Church universally to accept him, and, by this acceptance, to render the truth de fide.  

    [Note: the “peaceful” aspect of the P&UA, refers to the ɛƖɛctıon; the “universal acceptance” refers to the Church’s acceptance of the man as Pope; the former can render the latter unnecessary for the proposition to be de fide; the latter can supply for a defect in the former].

    For it is not necessary, in order for something to be de fide, that all the conditions prerequisite to it be visible.  It suffices initially to have a moral certitude of these conditions, which afterwards acquire the certitude of a theological conclusion. (…) prior to the ɛƖɛctıon, we can have only a moral certitude that all the conditions strictly necessary for a legitimate ɛƖɛctıon are being met.  Once the ɛƖɛctıon is accepted, however, it becomes a theological conclusion that all the conditionswere met, since they have a necessary connection with, and are of their very nature prerequisite to, this truth of faith. (…) Hence, it is not merely a pious belief, but a theological conclusion (as we have stated), that God will not permit one to be elected and peacefully accepted by the Church who in fact does not meet the conditions required; this would be contrary to the special providence that God exercises over the Church and the assistance that she receives from the Holy Ghost. [This was echoed by what Cardinal Billot wrote[3]]
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #102 on: July 16, 2021, 02:23:11 PM »
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  •  ... provided that the Bishop determines they're not hostile to the NOM.  What that means is also vague.  One bishop might just ask the priest, "Are you against the NOM?"  Answer:  "no".  Bishop: "OK". 
    In US, the vast majority of diocesan (not ecclesia dei) priests offering TLM also offer NO. They are patently not against the NO.

    The FSSP was forced to compromise on this years ago. They accept in principle that the NO is "healthy" and any FSSP priest can say it, though it is rare in practice and possibly unheard of in the US.

    I don't know the situation with the ICKSP, but if they haven't already compromised on the NO, they're the largest group that any of this might affect.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #103 on: July 16, 2021, 02:23:49 PM »
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  • Quote
    Uhm, it's right there in Bergoglio's letter.
    Quote
    Quote
    I take the firm decision to abrogate all the norms, instructions, permissions and customs that precede the present Motu proprio, and declare that the liturgical books promulgated by the saintly Pontiffs Paul VI and John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, constitute the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite. I take comfort in this decision from the fact that, after the Council of Trent, St. Pius V also abrogated all the rites that could not claim a proven antiquity, establishing for the whole Latin Church a single Missale Romanum.

    Bergoglio just abrogated the Tridentine Rite.
    He didn't abrogate/outlaw the TLM, otherwise why is it still permitted to be said?  Obviously, if one can use this missal, then it's not outlawed. 
    .
    He only abrogated the series of laws regarding the TLM which originated with the Ecclesia Dei and JPII. 
    .
    This has nothing to do with Quo Primum, which he admitted (just like +Benedict did) was not abrogated (outlawed).
    .
    This is all legal word games.  According to 2,000 years of Church History, the TLM is allowed by Divine Law (since Christ created it) and also by human law (Quo Primum).  But...according to V2, the TLM was "reformed" by the new mass.  JPII issued the Ecclesia Dei motu to tell V2 Catholics when and where they can attend the TLM.  This guidance concerns the V2 Bishops, and their V2 parishes.  It has nothing to do with Quo Primum.
    .
    As Our Lady of LaSalette told us, "The Church will be in eclipse."  New-rome, with their V2 "laws" have eclipsed the true, Church law.  But that only applies to those who follow the V2 church.  They are part of the matrix; believing, listening, and following all things from new-rome.  Quo Primum still exists; it's still law.  They can't outlaw the TLM; they can only attempt to regulate it out of existence by making it harder to find.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #104 on: July 16, 2021, 02:25:54 PM »
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  •  ... champagne corks popping in Menzingen ...
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)