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Author Topic: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived  (Read 11998 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2021, 12:07:04 PM »
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  • Quote
    abrogates the Tridentine Mass
    This didn’t happen.  I don’t know what docuмent you read.  As Sean said, this brings indult back to the 80s.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #76 on: July 16, 2021, 12:11:05 PM »
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  • Whoa.  If not, then what is?

    I really don't know. Unlike the sedes, I know I don't have all of the answers.

    Though I don't think that we humans can solve the Crisis alone, without God's help. We need to somehow be dependent on Him, and not on just ourselves and our beloved opinions.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #77 on: July 16, 2021, 12:14:47 PM »
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  • The sedes think/pretend every new Roman outrage compels sedevacantism.

    They’ve been saying the S.O.S. for 50 years.

    In reality, the new situation only brings those who care back to 1984/8.

    As far as not being able to resist a pope, here’s their (misappropriated) champion saying the opposite:

    “Just as it is licit to resist a Pontiff who attacks the body, so also is it licit to resist him who attacks souls or destroys the civil order or above all, tries to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will. It is not licit, however, to judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior.” (De Romano Pontifice, II.29.)

    PLEASE let one of them cite Fr. Cekada’s article as a rebuttal (which, whatever Fr. Cekada thought, did not accomplish nullifying this quote, as it set out to).
    Interesting how you quote Robert Bellarmine's book De Romano Pontifice but from the same book it is stated that Saint Robert Bellarmine claimed that no Pope had EVER taught heresy officially and that such was impossible.  Have you ever read the whole thing?


    Interestingly...  In this book he dedicates several chapters to claims of people that 30 or 40 different popes taught heresy and refutes EVERY SINGLE CASE.


    It might be worth reading.  🙃
    Volume 4, Chapters 8-14.

    Especially worthy of note since you mentioned Liberius and Honorius:
    Chapters 9 and 11.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #78 on: July 16, 2021, 12:20:37 PM »
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  • I really don't know. Unlike the sedes, I know I don't have all of the answers.

    Though I don't think that we humans can solve the Crisis alone, without God's help. We need to somehow be dependent on Him, and not on just ourselves and our beloved opinions.
    We never claimed to have the answers. We just believe the see is vacant and the conclusions drawn from that. We don't know how this crisis will resolve, Fr. Jenkins, Cekada and Bp. Sanborn have all stated such. But we do know that cleaving to a false church is definitely not going to help get souls to heaven.

    We have the exact conclusion you come to: only God is going to solve this Crisis.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #79 on: July 16, 2021, 12:27:01 PM »
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  • Interesting how you quote Robert Bellarmine's book De Romano Pontifice but from the same book it is stated that Saint Robert Bellarmine claimed that no Pope had EVER taught heresy officially and that such was impossible.  Have you ever read the whole thing?


    Interestingly...  In this book he dedicates several chapters to claims of people that 40 different popes taught heresy and refutes EVERY SINGLE CASE.


    It might be worth reading.  🙃

    Especially:
    Volume 4, Chapters 8-14.

    Interestingly, da Silveira notes that Bellarmine was humble enough to acknowledge that, though he did not believe it was possible for a pope to fall into heresy, the more common opinion was that he could, and therefore Bellarmine went on to articulate a HYPOTHETICAL argument (ie., in case he was wrong).

    In other words, he believed sedevacantism was impossible, because a pope can never become a heretic.

    You might want to check him out sometime.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #80 on: July 16, 2021, 12:33:14 PM »
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  • Uh, yeah, it’s a direct answer to your question.  But if you think the arguments in support of it are easily refuted, then I await your rebuttal.

    In response to your second question, only an idiot can believe is a pope less church for 3 generations (and counting).  

    1) You didn’t give any argument, you gave the names of two non-theologians. YOU need to formulate the argument so I can give a rebuttal.

    2) Is this passage from the book “The Relations of the Church to Society” by the eminent theologian Father Edmund O’Reilly, idiotic?

    (Page 287)

    "The great schism of the West suggests to me a reflection which I take the liberty of expressing here. If this schism had not occurred, the hypothesis of such a thing happening would appear to many chimerical. They would say it could not be; God would not permit the Church to come into so unhappy a situation. Heresies might spring up and spread and last painfully long, through the fault and to the perdition of their authors and abettors, to the great distress too of the faithful, increased by actual persecution in many places where the heretics were dominant. But that the true Church should remain between thirty and forty years without a thoroughly ascertained Head, and representative of Christ on earth, this would not be. Yet it has been; and we have no guarantee that it will not be again, though we may fervently hope otherwise. 

    What I would infer is, that we must not be too ready to pronounce on what God may permit. We know with absolute certainty that He will fulfil His promises; not allow anything to occur at variance with them; that He will sustain His Church and enable her to triumph over all enemies and difficulties; that He will give to each of the faithful those graces which are needed for each one's service of Him and attainment of salvation, as He did during the great schism we have been considering, and in all the sufferings and trials which the Church has passed through from the beginning. We may also trust He will do a great deal more than what He has bound Himself to by His promises. We may look forward with a cheering probability to exemption for the future from some of the troubles and misfortunes that have befallen in the past. But we, or our successors in future generations of Christians, shall perhaps see stranger evils than have yet been experienced, even before the immediate approach of that great winding up of all things on earth that will precede the day of judgment. I am not setting up for a prophet, nor pretending to see unhappy wonders, of which I have no knowledge whatever. All I mean to convey is that contingencies regarding the Church, not excluded by the Divine promises, cannot be regarded as practically impossible, just because they would be terrible and distressing in a very high degree."
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #82 on: July 16, 2021, 12:36:31 PM »
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  • Interestingly, da Silveira notes that Bellarmine was humble enough to acknowledge that, though he did not believe it was possible for a pope to fall into heresy, the more common opinion was that he could, and therefore Bellarmine went on to articulate a HYPOTHETICAL argument (ie., in case he was wrong).

    In other words, he believed sedevacantism was impossible, because a pope can never become a heretic.

    You might want to check him out sometime.

    So, are you claiming Bergoglio is not a heretic?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #83 on: July 16, 2021, 12:39:04 PM »
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  • Interestingly, da Silveira notes that Bellarmine was humble enough to acknowledge that, though he did not believe it was possible for a pope to fall into heresy, the more common opinion was that he could, and therefore Bellarmine went on to articulate a HYPOTHETICAL argument (ie., in case he was wrong).

    In other words, he believed sedevacantism was impossible, because a pope can never become a heretic.

    You might want to check him out sometime.
    Yes, Saint Robert was humble...  😇

    But not too humble to write the book even though even though it contradicted many living at that time...   🙃

    Wouldn't it seem more likely that he was right as he was so humble and yet dared to write what he did?  🤔

    He is the doctor of the church after all.  Not the others.  😏

    And if Saint Robert's book should be ignored in some aspects, why quote it at all?  🤨
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #84 on: July 16, 2021, 12:53:53 PM »
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  • Yes, Saint Robert was humble...  😇

    But not too humble to write the book even though even though it contradicted many living at that time...   🙃

    Wouldn't it seem more likely that he was right as he was so humble and yet dared to write what he did?  🤔

    He is the doctor of the church after all.  Not the others.  😏

    And if Saint Robert's book should be ignored in some aspects, why quote it at all?  🤨

    Why would it be “more likely Bellarmine was right,” when his actual opinion (ie., a pope can never fall into heresy) was a minority view, while his HYPOTHETICAL ruminations are opposed by so many greats (Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, Suarez, et al)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #85 on: July 16, 2021, 12:57:17 PM »
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  • I think Bergolio should abrogate child rape and molestations..,
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #86 on: July 16, 2021, 12:59:57 PM »
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  • So, are you claiming Bergoglio is not a heretic?
    I’m saying Bellarmine believed it was impossible.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #87 on: July 16, 2021, 01:07:26 PM »
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  • Nothing has changed. There is an unprecedented Crisis in the Church. There is a mystery involved, a supernatural knot that man can't untangle.
    Man could never have "figured out" that God is a Trinity without a divine revelation. Because the Trinity is a supernatural mystery.

    In my opinion, the precise nature of the Crisis in the Church (apparent "failure" of the visible Church, where is the Church, the status of recent Popes) is also a supernatural mystery. And I'll give you my reasoning why I believe that:
    If it were within man's power to sort it out, it would have been done by now. A lot of great minds have come and gone over the past 51 years.

    And yet -- not a single one of them managed to untie the knot to the satisfaction of ALL CATHOLICS OF GOOD WILL.

    Why are good-willed, intelligent, well-educated Catholics to be found on every side, if one side has "all the answers"? Not just one or more of these traits, but all 3 at once.

    Obviously some aspect of EACH of the proposed solutions is "wanting" or needs some kind of confirmation -- from God.

    When the authority and trust of God's representative on earth is shattered, who can really sort it out -- but God himself?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #88 on: July 16, 2021, 01:08:49 PM »
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  • Billuart:

    “Nevertheless, the more common opinion (sententia communior) holds that Christ, by a special dispensation, for the common good and tranquility of the Church, will continue to give jurisdiction even to a manifestly heretical pope, until he has been declared a manifest heretic by the Church." 

    (S. Thomae of Charles Rene Billuart, O.P. (1685-1757) Secunda Secundae, 4th Dissertation: On the Vices Opposed to Faith, Article 3)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #89 on: July 16, 2021, 01:09:51 PM »
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  • It's really very simple - we have our souls to save, the status of the pope? - not our business.

    I came across this a few days ago while looking for something else in Who Shall Ascend?......

    "...The divisive aberration of Sedevacantism is due to nothing else than certain priests' losing sight of their proper roles in our present malaise. To save the Church from an heretical pope was never their assignment. Securing the Apostolic succession of the Church was never their assignment. What was their assignment? It was to take care of the people whom God sent them as best they could, say their prayers faithfully, study and pray that they might not themselves fall victim to the spirit of Liberalism and worldliness, and keep their torment and speculations to themselves. The hierarchical structure of the Church and the papacy are not their business. Such high matters are the province of none other than Christ Himself and His Mother and the Apostles...."
    Stubborn, DL was not discussing Francis's personal salvation.  The salvation of every individual, including every priest and universally acclaimed and loved true Pope, is in main the responsibility of that man, aided only secondarily by the prayers of the faithful. There have been other hand-wringing discussions inordinately focused on what lay people should "do" about a heterodox, heretical, or obstinately sinful pope, but I don't think this discussion is centered on that.

    If so much as one soul perishes because of this contemptible docuмent, PF will be answerable to God Almighty. However, the docuмent is not a trivial or irrelevant matter to the rest of us, inasmuch as it affects the lives of Catholics without access to currently "approved" TLM's.