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Author Topic: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived  (Read 11975 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2021, 08:30:26 AM »
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  • "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #46 on: July 16, 2021, 08:31:19 AM »
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  • I'll pray for you.
    “The sede cries in pain as he strikes you!”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #47 on: July 16, 2021, 08:35:34 AM »
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  • What absolutely filth.  This is nothing but an attempt to destroy the Traditional movement ... BY HIS OWN ADMISSION ... denouncing those who reject the "legitimacy" of the V2 "reforms".

    As with most Modernists, Bergoglio suddenly believes in EENS dogma, except that only Trads are outside the Church:

    Of course, according to Bergoglio, practicing sodomites, adulterers, etc. can all be saved ... but not Traditionalists who are not united "with their heart" (i.e. accept Vatican II).

    So the only thing that will put you outside of the Church and outside salvation is to be a Traditional Catholics.
    .Vicar of Christ.
    "With the heart" -that was exactly what I was going to address until I saw your post first. It was kind of Frank to define what that actually is- rejection of Vll, modernism and the apostasy of Bergoglio.
    I hope independent Chapels have some extra bunks.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #48 on: July 16, 2021, 08:37:03 AM »
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  • I mean, Bergs explicitly stated that any rejection of Vatican II was unacceptable last year. It was obvious this was coming. Now we're returning to the days like after Montini forced the new rite on everyone.

    I am interested to see the mental gymnastics that will follow with those who insist the man is a pope of the CATHOLIC Church. I don't really care if I'm outside of the NOVUS ORDO church, I've known that already. But there is absolutely no way that he is part of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church, let alone its head.
    It's really very simple - we have our souls to save, the status of the pope? - not our business.

    I came across this a few days ago while looking for something else in Who Shall Ascend?......

    "...The divisive aberration of Sedevacantism is due to nothing else than certain priests' losing sight of their proper roles in our present malaise. To save the Church from an heretical pope was never their assignment. Securing the Apostolic succession of the Church was never their assignment. What was their assignment? It was to take care of the people whom God sent them as best they could, say their prayers faithfully, study and pray that they might not themselves fall victim to the spirit of Liberalism and worldliness, and keep their torment and speculations to themselves. The hierarchical structure of the Church and the papacy are not their business. Such high matters are the province of none other than Christ Himself and His Mother and the Apostles...."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #49 on: July 16, 2021, 08:55:51 AM »
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  • It's really very simple - we have our souls to save, the status of the pope? - not our business.

    I came across this a few days ago while looking for something else in Who Shall Ascend?......

    "...The divisive aberration of Sedevacantism is due to nothing else than certain priests' losing sight of their proper roles in our present malaise. To save the Church from an heretical pope was never their assignment. Securing the Apostolic succession of the Church was never their assignment. What was their assignment? It was to take care of the people whom God sent them as best they could, say their prayers faithfully, study and pray that they might not themselves fall victim to the spirit of Liberalism and worldliness, and keep their torment and speculations to themselves. The hierarchical structure of the Church and the papacy are not their business. Such high matters are the province of none other than Christ Himself and His Mother and the Apostles...."
    Unfortunately, it became their business once a revolution came from the top-down. Priests trying to defend their flocks is precisely why the sedevacantist thesis arose as an answer as to why heresy and error were coming out of the Vatican. It became the business of the bishop, priest and layman once the hierarchy apostatized from the traditional Catholic faith. This is true also of the R&R camp of Catholics, and is why a traditionalist "movement" exists at all.

    Furthermore, this quote reads as if the doings of the Pope are utterly irrelevant to the average parish priest and layman. It is saturated with the papal minimalism of the Gallicans in the 19th century and the Modernists of today which try to reduce the Pope to that of a mere figurehead and not the rule of faith for the entire Church.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #50 on: July 16, 2021, 09:23:55 AM »
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  • It seems that the traditional Mass will have a significant change that everyone will see immediately:


    Quote
    § 3. to establish at the designated locations the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962.[7] In these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language, using translations of the Sacred Scripture approved for liturgical use by the respective Episcopal Conferences; [Emphasis added.]
    I'd be interested to hear how many people see this on Sunday.  I'm sure the FSSP and ICK and other diocesan approved groups will see this.  How many SSPX priests will be proclaiming the readings in the vernacular? 




    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #51 on: July 16, 2021, 09:25:04 AM »
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    Unfortunately, it became their business once a revolution came from the top-down. Priests trying to defend their flocks is precisely why the sedevacantist thesis arose as an answer as to why heresy and error were coming out of the Vatican. It became the business of the bishop, priest and layman once the hierarchy apostatized from the traditional Catholic faith. This is true also of the R&R camp of Catholics, and is why a traditionalist "movement" exists at all.

    Fr's point was simply that the Traditionalist movement is the necessary and end point of our reaction to V2.  He would say it is an over-reaction to classify oneself as a "sedevacantist" because being a "traditionalist" is enough.  If he were alive today, he would also chastise the new-sspx for their hopium mindset of "saving the church" and attempting to "make a deal" with new-rome. 
    .
    Fr Wathen's mindset was always "Do what you can (stick with Tradition).  Don't do more than this (don't go into extremes and let the devil divide Tradition).  Try to work together."  For the most part, in the 70s and 80s, Trads did work together.  But then camps were created, unfortunately.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #52 on: July 16, 2021, 09:31:57 AM »
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  • Fr's point was simply that the Traditionalist movement is the necessary and end point of our reaction to V2.  He would say it is an over-reaction to classify oneself as a "sedevacantist" because being a "traditionalist" is enough.  If he were alive today, he would also chastise the new-sspx for their hopium mindset of "saving the church" and attempting to "make a deal" with new-rome.  
    .
    Fr Wathen's mindset was always "Do what you can (stick with Tradition).  Don't do more than this (don't go into extremes and let the devil divide Tradition).  Try to work together."  For the most part, in the 70s and 80s, Trads did work together.  But then camps were created, unfortunately.
    And I completely agree with that. I am not speaking as if sedevacantism is the only answer, or the correct answer, but the position I've found to be most logically consistent with the indefectibility of the Church. Just as others have found profession of these conciliar "popes" to be their most logically consistent position. Sedevacantist or sedeplenist, the line has been drawn in the sand through this move by Francis and we are all now considered "outside" of the Church.

    I think we, as trads, could learn much from the cooperation of the 70s and 80s these days, as the division between the Novus Ordo and the Catholic Church has become that much more pronounced. I think a "never-sede" position is just as harmful to the Church as the "non una cuм".
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #53 on: July 16, 2021, 09:39:13 AM »
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    Sedevacantist or sedeplenist, the line has been drawn in the sand through this move by Francis and we are all now considered "outside" of the Church.
    I don't see this motu as any more extreme as the indult of the 80s.  +Francis still admitted that the mass of St Pius V is not abrogated; for Trads, this has changed nothing.  It's "business as usual".
    .

    Quote
    I think we, as trads, could learn much from the cooperation of the 70s and 80s these days, as the division between the Novus Ordo and the Catholic Church has become that much more pronounced. I think a "never-sede" position is just as harmful to the Church as the "non una cuм".

    Fr was not anti-sede, but only anti-"sede only".  He was only against those priests who require sede views to attend mass.  Such existed in the 80s and still do.  I know many Trads who can't go to certain chapels because the priest has turned them away.  I don't mention this to attack the sede theory, just attack extreme-ism (same as I attack FSSP/indult lukewarm-ism).

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #54 on: July 16, 2021, 09:45:16 AM »
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  • I don't see this motu as any more extreme as the indult of the 80s.  +Francis still admitted that the mass of St Pius V is not abrogated; for Trads, this has changed nothing.  It's "business as usual".
    .

    Fr was not anti-sede, but only anti-"sede only".  He was only against those priests who require sede views to attend mass.  Such existed in the 80s and still do.  I know many Trads who can't go to certain chapels because the priest has turned them away.  I don't mention this to attack the sede theory, just attack extreme-ism (same as I attack FSSP/indult lukewarm-ism).
    Yes, it certainly is "business as usual". That's why we need to stop with the diabolic divisions of things which cannot be proven at this time and reflect on what Our Lord said: "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

    I think it's abominable that some priests would reject well-intentioned Catholics over this. I think it's wrong to deny sedes for their position, and wrong for sedes to deny non-sedes for theirs. Because, as I said, neither thesis has been proven but both are a means to preserve the souls of those who actually practice the Catholic Faith.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #55 on: July 16, 2021, 09:59:19 AM »
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  • Which church?  Catholic or conciliar?
    Ps: This cake tastes wonderful.
    Ok, you tell me, is Bergoglio the head of the Catholic Church or conciliar church?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #56 on: July 16, 2021, 10:01:42 AM »
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  • It seems that the traditional Mass will have a significant change that everyone will see immediately:

    I'd be interested to hear how many people see this on Sunday.  I'm sure the FSSP and ICK and other diocesan approved groups will see this.  How many SSPX priests will be proclaiming the readings in the vernacular?
    SSPX already does this in parts of France.😡
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #57 on: July 16, 2021, 10:02:17 AM »
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  • Ok, you tell me, is Bergoglio the head of the Catholic Church or conciliar church?
    One pope for two churches (Tissier/Avrille)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #58 on: July 16, 2021, 10:05:45 AM »
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    Yes, it certainly is "business as usual". That's why we need to stop with the diabolic divisions of things which cannot be proven at this time and reflect on what Our Lord said: "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

    I agree.  This thread is proof that instead of all of us just proclaiming, "Screw you, new-rome, Quo Primum is the answer", it turns into a sede-non-sede argument, which really, is of secondary importance to the TLM.  But such is human nature...

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #59 on: July 16, 2021, 10:08:37 AM »
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  • And I completely agree with that. I am not speaking as if sedevacantism is the only answer, or the correct answer, but the position I've found to be most logically consistent with the indefectibility of the Church. Just as others have found profession of these conciliar "popes" to be their most logically consistent position. Sedevacantist or sedeplenist, the line has been drawn in the sand through this move by Francis and we are all now considered "outside" of the Church.

    Well, you are far more magnanimous than many of the sedes who post here. For some of them, sedeism (and sedewhateverism) is the only answer, and those who don't agree are not Catholic. This is known as dogmatic sedevacantism.

    Though their vocalization of this view has not been so dominant lately, it will rear its ugly head eventually. It always does. They create a lot of division; far more, IMO, than those of us who take +ABL's view of the Crisis in the Church. If Trads want to take the sede stance, that's fine, but don't be pushy about it with those who don't accept it (I understand that you yourself are not pushy).

    The division in the trad world isn't going to go away. We are too stubborn. That's why I believe that traditional Catholicism isn't necessarily the answer to the Crisis in the Church. But we can still love God with all of our heart and soul, and strive to speak the truth with charity, no matter what stance we take.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29