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Author Topic: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived  (Read 11969 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2021, 07:47:59 AM »
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  • The good conclusion of all this is that the battle lines are becoming more and more clear.  The indult TLM is no longer a "middle ground" where you can attend and keep your distance from the new mass.  For many indulters, this will be a big test of Faith, especially the younger generations, who don't know anything about V2.  
    .
    Let us pray that they will accept God's graces, see the errors of the new mass, and leave new-rome for Tradition.
    But how will it be a test of Faith for the younger generations if they don't know the issues with V2?  For them isn't the TLM just a liturgical "preference"? 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #31 on: July 16, 2021, 07:49:11 AM »
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  • Even Ratzinger's Motu left it to the bishops.

    Only difference was:

    Ratzinger:  permitted unless denied.
    Bergoglio:  denied unless permitted.

    So no PRACTICAL difference ... except for all priests ordained after the Motu have to get permission from ROME to be able to say the Tridentine Mass.  So they hope to extinguish the Traditional Mass over time.  So I wonder whether Xavier, if he gest ordained some day, will go to Rome to get permission.

    But the real problem here is that Bergoglio:
    1) claims that the NOM is the EXCLUSIVE expression of the Roman Rite (i.e. rejects Ratzinger's extraordinary form thing)
    2) says the bishops are required to determine that any Motu groups do NOT reject the legitimacy of the NOM

    So, R&R, is this guy still your pope?

    Why should this present (as you desire) an additional impetus toward sedevacantism?

    The 1984 indult had the same requirement of acknowledging the doctrinal uprightness of the NOM, and was the primary reason indult attendance was impermissible.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #32 on: July 16, 2021, 07:49:31 AM »
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  • What an apropos Gospel this past Sunday (Bergoglio just showing his hand) :



    Matthew 7:15-21
    7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    7:16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.
    7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire.
    7:20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.
    7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #33 on: July 16, 2021, 08:00:36 AM »
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  • THIS^^^

    Not that EVERYTHING that comes from the hierarchy is infallible, but this crosses a line.  They're clearly forcing the NOM on everybody.

    So what of the R&R position that the NOM as never properly "promulgated" and the TLM never "abolished" and that's why the NOM is not an issue with regard to the Church's disciplinary infallibility?

    In many ways, Bergoglio has unwittingly done much good.  He's ripped off the mask and the veneer of Catholicism from the Conciliar Church.
    The sede thinks every new Roman outrage compels sedevacantism.
    They’ve been saying that at each instance for the last 50 years.
    It appears lost on them that we R&R will simply continue to abide by Quo Orimum, and disregard this pseudo-disciplinary MP (recognizing the pope until he is declared deposed, while resisting his heterodox teachings).
    The sedes who believe a real pope can’t mislead the flock are ignorant about Church history (Honorious, Liberius, Adrian, etc).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #34 on: July 16, 2021, 08:01:52 AM »
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  • To be clear, I’m not asserting that those who believe that Bergoglio is the pope are outside the Church. Where the danger presents itself is when they fall into the false notion that the Church can lead someone into error. This is heretical.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #35 on: July 16, 2021, 08:03:59 AM »
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  • To be clear, I’m not asserting that those who believe that Bergoglio is the pope are outside the Church. Where the danger presents itself is when they fall into the false notion that the Church can lead someone into error. This is heretical.
    Church, or churchmen?
    The latter can, have, are, and will continue to lead into error.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #36 on: July 16, 2021, 08:06:29 AM »
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  • I can hear dear Father Collins singing now....
    Father laughed every time I reiterated that story because he knew the priest well. 😂
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #37 on: July 16, 2021, 08:11:54 AM »
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  • I mean, Bergs explicitly stated that any rejection of Vatican II was unacceptable last year. It was obvious this was coming. Now we're returning to the days like after Montini forced the new rite on everyone.

    I am interested to see the mental gymnastics that will follow with those who insist the man is a pope of the CATHOLIC Church. I don't really care if I'm outside of the NOVUS ORDO church, I've known that already. But there is absolutely no way that he is part of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church, let alone its head.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #38 on: July 16, 2021, 08:12:59 AM »
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  • I am interested to see the mental gymnastics that will follow with those who insist the man is a pope of the CATHOLIC Church. I don't really care if I'm outside of the NOVUS ORDO church, I've known that already. But there is absolutely no way that he is part of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church, let alone its head.
    We're already seeing it.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #39 on: July 16, 2021, 08:14:42 AM »
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  • We're already seeing it.
    Yeah. I see that now. Anything but sedevacantism. 
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #40 on: July 16, 2021, 08:18:45 AM »
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  • Church, or churchmen?
    The latter can, have, are, and will continue to lead into error.

    No, if that monstrosity is the Church then those are the OFFICIAL liturgies, OFFICIAL sacraments and OFFICIAL laws. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Sorry.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #41 on: July 16, 2021, 08:23:25 AM »
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  • How about this whopper from the accompanying letter:

    “I take comfort in this decision from the fact that, after the Council of Trent, St. Pius V also abrogated all the rites that could not claim a proven antiquity, establishing for the whole Latin Church a single Missale Romanum. For four centuries this Missale Romanum, promulgated by St. Pius V was thus the principal expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite, and functioned to maintain the unity of the Church.“

    But Your Holiness, you are doing the exact OPPOSITE of what St. Pius V did: 

    Rather than abrogating rites that could not claim a proven antiquity, you are abrogating a 1600 year-old rite, and establishing for the whole Latin Church a fabricated novelty (and pretending to do it by motu proprio against a papal bull declares you it’s author to be irrevocable).

    And I note in passing the suggestion that the Missale Romanum promulgated by St. Pius V enjoyed only a 400 year usage in the Church, whereas in fact, in the main, it simply codified a rite already I use for 1,000 years.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #42 on: July 16, 2021, 08:23:58 AM »
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  • Quote
    But how will it be a test of Faith for the younger generations if they don't know the issues with V2?  For them isn't the TLM just a liturgical "preference"?
    I mis-typed.  When I said they "didn't know about V2" I meant that they didn't have any connection with the turbulent times of the 60s/70s, and the totalitarian/dictatorship atmosphere when the TLM was outlawed and the new mass installed.  They didn't see the lies of the Bishops at the time and the propaganda used. 
    .
    ...Much like today...we see the heavy-handed use of authority/control to push the virus lockdowns and threats against truth-speakers today...
    .
    If you didn't live during V2, or hear of it from those that did, then all you know are what the "history books" say, which is, the nice fairy tale of "Well, people wanted an updated mass and everyone liked it right off the bat."
    .
    My point is, yes, many of the younger generation do know what the problems are with V2.  But they only know such problems in theory.  They've yet to see the anti-TLM hatred of true V2 Modernists in action.  This will wake up many (I pray) to see the true devilish deceit in the new mass.  It's meant to replace the TLM; it's not an "updated" liturgy; and no one really likes it (except those who aren't true catholics).

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #43 on: July 16, 2021, 08:25:03 AM »
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  • No, if that monstrosity is the Church then those are the OFFICIAL liturgies, OFFICIAL sacraments and OFFICIAL laws. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Sorry.
    Which church?  Catholic or conciliar?
    Ps: This cake tastes wonderful.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #44 on: July 16, 2021, 08:26:29 AM »
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  • Yeah. I see that now. Anything but sedevacantism.
    Definitely.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."