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Author Topic: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived  (Read 12000 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2021, 06:51:47 AM »
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    I think that it's up the bishops entirely, that's all.  Some bishops actually have the Motu Masses in poorer, struggling parishes to give them a financial boost.  That's one of the reasons most Motu Masses are in the inner city.

    According to this, TLM are banned from all parochial/parish churches.  +Francis is trying to funnel all TLMs to non-parish communities (i.e. FSSP, ICK, etc) and then they can control these "established communities" and "re-educate" them. 
    .
    Note that it is strictly forbidden to establish any new TLM communities.  So, for example, the big church in Chicago, St John Cantius, where many people were going to the TLM.  Not allowed anymore.  If your city doesn't have FSSP or ICK, then the TLM won't be available.
    .
    I think this is the deal that +Francis offered to +Fellay...join us and you'll be in charge of all TLMs.  I suppose the new-sspx could still make a deal but now they know they'll have to say the new mass.  +Francis got impatient...V2 or else.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #16 on: July 16, 2021, 07:02:58 AM »
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  • And we are outside of the Church... the Anti-Church, the Novus Ordo sect.  

    Yeah, but I think this just formalized that.  This is the official "excommunication of Tradition".  Before now, they excommunicated specific Traditional Catholics; now he's teaching that Traditional Catholics are outside the Church.

    This isn't just about the practical details of how many Motu Masses there will be.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #17 on: July 16, 2021, 07:07:29 AM »
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  • Yeah, but I think this just formalized that.  This is the official "excommunication of Tradition".  Before now, they excommunicated specific Traditional Catholics; now he's teaching that Traditional Catholics are outside the Church.

    This isn't just about the practical details of how many Motu Masses there will be.
    Agreed.  He is telling the Traditional Catholics he is not their pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #18 on: July 16, 2021, 07:11:02 AM »
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  • So ...

    1) no more NEW Motu Groups
    2) existing Motu Groups need to be vetted to see whether they're closet Traditionliasts
    3) no priests ordained going forward will be allowed to offer the Tridentine Mass

    So he's hoping to wipe out the Traditional movement over time.

    What he'll find, however, is that a significant number of Motarians will head over to the SSPX (or elsewhere).  So he's going to strengthen the numbers of the Traditional groups.

    I know that here in the Akron area, when the Motu was shut down due to COVID, Father Carley's church couldn't hold all the refugee Motarians.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #19 on: July 16, 2021, 07:11:07 AM »
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  • Let's examine the practical effects of this motu, in light of the French Bishop's expulsion of the FSSP from his diocese.
    .
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/fssp-expelled-in-france/msg758899/?topicseen#msg758899
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    Edward Pentin | DIJON, France — A French archbishop who plans to expel a traditional priestly fraternity from his diocese because they won’t concelebrate Masses has said he took the decision in anticipation of a new decree, or motu proprio, that Pope Francis is reported to be preparing to publish.

    According to this new motu, the French Bishop is following the directives of +Francis perfectly.  Either concelebrate the new mass or you're out.
    .

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    Father Roch Perrel, the FSSP’s superior in Dijon, told CNA that the archbishop had made the decision because the FSSP’s priests fail to follow a practice promoted at the Second Vatican Council of two or more priests concelebrating at the altar.

    “[Archbishop Minnerath] wanted to concelebrate the Chrism Mass during Holy Week, but we haven’t done it for years, as we have reservations about the new [Paul VI] Mass and we don’t celebrate at the same pace,” said Father Perrel, who went on to emphasize that, according to Canon 902 of the Code of Canon Law, no one can be forced to concelebrate.

    You are no longer allowed to have "reservations about the new mass".
    .
    .
    The good conclusion of all this is that the battle lines are becoming more and more clear.  The indult TLM is no longer a "middle ground" where you can attend and keep your distance from the new mass.  For many indulters, this will be a big test of Faith, especially the younger generations, who don't know anything about V2. 
    .
    Let us pray that they will accept God's graces, see the errors of the new mass, and leave new-rome for Tradition.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #20 on: July 16, 2021, 07:14:13 AM »
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  • Agreed.  He is telling the Traditional Catholics he is not their pope.

    He needs to tell us something we don't already know.

    I think it's time for R&R just to throw in the towel here.

    We have an Antipope here who approves of idol worship, sodomy, adulterous cohabitation, etc. and has just abrogated and excommunicated the Traditional Catholics movement.

    It's becoming increasingly absurd to continue to maintain that this man is a Catholic and is inside the Church.

    But according to people like Xavier and many dogmatic R&R, Bergoglio is a Catholic in good standing, whereas sedevacantists are schismatics and outside the Church.

    They become ridiculouser and ridiculouser with each day that passes.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #21 on: July 16, 2021, 07:16:03 AM »
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  • So ...

    1) no more NEW Motu Groups

    Hmmm...so doesn't this mean that he is intimating that the SSPX will never be allowed in?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #22 on: July 16, 2021, 07:17:13 AM »
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  • Who cares what this degenerate heretic says? If the NO church is the Catholic Church and if Bergoglio is a true pope, then you should go to the NO service and accept all the novelties. Will you feel comfortable at your particular judgement saying that you were just being obedient to the pope and his Church that can’t lead you into error?

    The Church CANNOT  lead you into error, period. One of the roles of the pope is to CONFIRM his brethren. Bergoglio wants to confirm you in heresy and wants you to attend a sacrilegious Protestant service. If he’s the pope and that monstrosity is the Catholic Church, then the gates of Hell have truly prevailed!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #23 on: July 16, 2021, 07:23:23 AM »
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  • He needs to tell us something we don't already know.

    I think it's time for R&R just to throw in the towel here.

    We have an Antipope here who approves of idol worship, sodomy, adulterous cohabitation, etc. and has just abrogated and excommunicated the Traditional Catholics movement.

    It's becoming increasingly absurd to continue to maintain that this man is a Catholic and is inside the Church.

    But according to people like Xavier and many dogmatic R&R, Bergoglio is a Catholic in good standing, whereas sedevacantists are schismatics and outside the Church.

    They become ridiculouser and ridiculouser with each day that passes.
    That’s absolutely right! I remember about 20 years ago an SSPX priest refused to give me a blessing when he found out I held the sedevacantist position. After about an hour of debate, I finally said to him; “OK , JPII is a Catholic, but I’m not?” ......... He gave me his blessing!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #24 on: July 16, 2021, 07:25:33 AM »
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  • Let's examine the practical effects of this motu, in light of the French Bishop's expulsion of the FSSP from his diocese.

    They could have done this at any time.  No bishop was ever required to set up a Motu site in his diocese.

    Ratzinger's Motu was widely misunderstood.  It was STILL subject to the bishop whether there could be any public Tridentine Masses.  Biggest impact is that a priest could offer the Mass privately whenever he wanted.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #25 on: July 16, 2021, 07:29:59 AM »
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  • That’s absolutely right! I remember about 20 years ago an SSPX priest refused to give me a blessing when he found out I held the sedevacantist position. After about an hour of debate, I finally said to him; “OK , JPII is a Catholic, but I’m not?” ......... He gave me his blessing!
    I can hear dear Father Collins singing now....


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #26 on: July 16, 2021, 07:36:44 AM »
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  • According to this, TLM are banned from all parochial/parish churches. 

    I'm not sure what that provision means.  It'll probably be the cause of much confusion.  On the face of it, 90% of all the diocesan Motu Masses would have to be shut down ... as of this coming Sunday.  I doubt that's going to happen.  But we'll see.  I believe that the intent is for the establishment of NEW groups and that the older ones seem grandfathered in ... provided that the Bishop determines they're not hostile to the NOM.  What that means is also vague.  One bishop might just ask the priest, "Are you against the NOM?"  Answer:  "no".  Bishop: "OK".  I'm sure you'll find about 50% of Motarians who are hostile to the NOM.  Will each attendee be investigated and forced to sign a paper pledging allegiance to the NOM, to Bergoglio, and to Pachamama worship?

    At the end of the day, it'll just be whatever the bishop wants to do ... as it always has been.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #27 on: July 16, 2021, 07:36:54 AM »
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    They could have done this at any time.

    Yes, in theory, they could have.  But they didn't.  Now they are. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #28 on: July 16, 2021, 07:40:08 AM »
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  • The Church CANNOT  lead you into error, period.

    THIS^^^

    Not that EVERYTHING that comes from the hierarchy is infallible, but this crosses a line.  They're clearly forcing the NOM on everybody.

    So what of the R&R position that the NOM as never properly "promulgated" and the TLM never "abolished" and that's why the NOM is not an issue with regard to the Church's disciplinary infallibility?

    In many ways, Bergoglio has unwittingly done much good.  He's ripped off the mask and the veneer of Catholicism from the Conciliar Church.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
    « Reply #29 on: July 16, 2021, 07:40:59 AM »
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    I'm not sure what that provision means.  It'll probably be the cause of much confusion.  On the face of it, 90% of all the diocesan Motu Masses would have to be shut down ... as of this coming Sunday.  I doubt that's going to happen.  But we'll see. 
    I agree it's not going to happen overnight.
    .

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    I believe that the intent is for the establishment of NEW groups and that the older ones seem grandfathered in
    No, because the motu says that no new establishments are to be created.  FSSP and ICK (and other smaller ones) are it.
    .

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    ... provided that the Bishop determines they're not hostile to the NOM.  What that means is also vague.  One bishop might just ask the priest, "Are you against the NOM?"  Answer:  "no".  Bishop: "OK".  I'm sure you'll find about 50% of Motarians who are hostile to the NOM.  Will each attendee be investigated and forced to sign a paper pledging allegiance to the NOM, to Bergoglio, and to Pachamama worship?

    I think it'll be much more than a verbal/written agreement.  As in the case of the French Bishop, such priests will have to concelebrate new masses and/or attend such services.