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Author Topic: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived  (Read 17280 times)

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2021, 09:23:55 AM »
It seems that the traditional Mass will have a significant change that everyone will see immediately:


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§ 3. to establish at the designated locations the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962.[7] In these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language, using translations of the Sacred Scripture approved for liturgical use by the respective Episcopal Conferences; [Emphasis added.]
I'd be interested to hear how many people see this on Sunday.  I'm sure the FSSP and ICK and other diocesan approved groups will see this.  How many SSPX priests will be proclaiming the readings in the vernacular? 




Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2021, 09:25:04 AM »
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Unfortunately, it became their business once a revolution came from the top-down. Priests trying to defend their flocks is precisely why the sedevacantist thesis arose as an answer as to why heresy and error were coming out of the Vatican. It became the business of the bishop, priest and layman once the hierarchy apostatized from the traditional Catholic faith. This is true also of the R&R camp of Catholics, and is why a traditionalist "movement" exists at all.

Fr's point was simply that the Traditionalist movement is the necessary and end point of our reaction to V2.  He would say it is an over-reaction to classify oneself as a "sedevacantist" because being a "traditionalist" is enough.  If he were alive today, he would also chastise the new-sspx for their hopium mindset of "saving the church" and attempting to "make a deal" with new-rome. 
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Fr Wathen's mindset was always "Do what you can (stick with Tradition).  Don't do more than this (don't go into extremes and let the devil divide Tradition).  Try to work together."  For the most part, in the 70s and 80s, Trads did work together.  But then camps were created, unfortunately.


Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2021, 09:31:57 AM »
Fr's point was simply that the Traditionalist movement is the necessary and end point of our reaction to V2.  He would say it is an over-reaction to classify oneself as a "sedevacantist" because being a "traditionalist" is enough.  If he were alive today, he would also chastise the new-sspx for their hopium mindset of "saving the church" and attempting to "make a deal" with new-rome.  
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Fr Wathen's mindset was always "Do what you can (stick with Tradition).  Don't do more than this (don't go into extremes and let the devil divide Tradition).  Try to work together."  For the most part, in the 70s and 80s, Trads did work together.  But then camps were created, unfortunately.
And I completely agree with that. I am not speaking as if sedevacantism is the only answer, or the correct answer, but the position I've found to be most logically consistent with the indefectibility of the Church. Just as others have found profession of these conciliar "popes" to be their most logically consistent position. Sedevacantist or sedeplenist, the line has been drawn in the sand through this move by Francis and we are all now considered "outside" of the Church.

I think we, as trads, could learn much from the cooperation of the 70s and 80s these days, as the division between the Novus Ordo and the Catholic Church has become that much more pronounced. I think a "never-sede" position is just as harmful to the Church as the "non una cuм".

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2021, 09:39:13 AM »
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Sedevacantist or sedeplenist, the line has been drawn in the sand through this move by Francis and we are all now considered "outside" of the Church.
I don't see this motu as any more extreme as the indult of the 80s.  +Francis still admitted that the mass of St Pius V is not abrogated; for Trads, this has changed nothing.  It's "business as usual".
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I think we, as trads, could learn much from the cooperation of the 70s and 80s these days, as the division between the Novus Ordo and the Catholic Church has become that much more pronounced. I think a "never-sede" position is just as harmful to the Church as the "non una cuм".

Fr was not anti-sede, but only anti-"sede only".  He was only against those priests who require sede views to attend mass.  Such existed in the 80s and still do.  I know many Trads who can't go to certain chapels because the priest has turned them away.  I don't mention this to attack the sede theory, just attack extreme-ism (same as I attack FSSP/indult lukewarm-ism).

Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2021, 09:45:16 AM »
I don't see this motu as any more extreme as the indult of the 80s.  +Francis still admitted that the mass of St Pius V is not abrogated; for Trads, this has changed nothing.  It's "business as usual".
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Fr was not anti-sede, but only anti-"sede only".  He was only against those priests who require sede views to attend mass.  Such existed in the 80s and still do.  I know many Trads who can't go to certain chapels because the priest has turned them away.  I don't mention this to attack the sede theory, just attack extreme-ism (same as I attack FSSP/indult lukewarm-ism).
Yes, it certainly is "business as usual". That's why we need to stop with the diabolic divisions of things which cannot be proven at this time and reflect on what Our Lord said: "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

I think it's abominable that some priests would reject well-intentioned Catholics over this. I think it's wrong to deny sedes for their position, and wrong for sedes to deny non-sedes for theirs. Because, as I said, neither thesis has been proven but both are a means to preserve the souls of those who actually practice the Catholic Faith.