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Author Topic: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived  (Read 17313 times)

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Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2021, 06:39:29 AM »
Even Ratzinger's Motu left it to the bishops.

Only difference was:

Ratzinger:  permitted unless denied.
Bergoglio:  denied unless permitted.

So no PRACTICAL difference ... except for all priests ordained after the Motu have to get permission from ROME to be able to say the Tridentine Mass.  So they hope to extinguish the Traditional Mass over time.  So I wonder whether Xavier, if he gest ordained some day, will go to Rome to get permission.

But the real problem here is that Bergoglio:
1) claims that the NOM is the EXCLUSIVE expression of the Roman Rite (i.e. rejects Ratzinger's extraordinary form thing)
2) says the bishops are required to determine that any Motu groups do NOT reject the legitimacy of the NOM

So, R&R, is this guy still your pope?
Yes, these are some of my same conclusions regarding this.  I also found these remarks in the Letter to the Bishops noteworthy:

But I am nonetheless saddened that the instrumental use of Missale Romanum of 1962 is often characterized by a rejection not only of the liturgical reform, but of the Vatican Council II itself, claiming, with unfounded and unsustainable assertions, that it betrayed the Tradition and the “true Church”.

The path of the Church must be seen within the dynamic of Tradition “which originates from the Apostles and progresses in the Church with the assistance of the Holy Spirit” (DV 8). A recent stage of this dynamic was constituted by Vatican Council II where the Catholic episcopate came together to listen and to discern the path for the Church indicated by the Holy Spirit.

To doubt the Council is to doubt the intentions of those very Fathers who exercised their collegial power in a solemn manner cuм Petro et sub Petro in an ecuмenical council,[14] and, in the final analysis, to doubt the Holy Spirit himself who guides the Church.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2021, 06:40:05 AM »
Wow, this is gonna be really heavy-handed, when the Bishops start to "clean house".  Basically, no more TLM in any parish churches; they can only be said at certain places, on certain days, by certain priests.  Wow.  
.
This is going to put major pressure on the FSSP.  On the one hand, if many of these priests leave new-rome over this, that would be great.  Hopefully they will join Tradition and be conditionally ordained.  On the other hand, I hope they don't join the SSPX because I don't trust +Fellay.

I don't know.  Those bishops who allowed it before will probably continue to allow it.  This Motu did make exception for FSSP and similar Ecclesia Dei groups ... as I predicted.


Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2021, 06:40:51 AM »
Quote
But the real problem here is that Bergoglio:
1) claims that the NOM is the EXCLUSIVE expression of the Roman Rite (i.e. rejects Ratzinger's extraordinary form thing)
2) says the bishops are required to determine that any Motu groups do NOT reject the legitimacy of the NOM

He says the above, but still admits that the TLM was never abrogated.  He also repeatedly calls the NOM the "reformed rite" (as opposed to the TLM which is the true rite?  It stands to reason).  So, bottomline, this motu is illegal the same as all the other ones.  Nothing to see here.  :sleep:

Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2021, 06:41:52 AM »
Wow, this is gonna be really heavy-handed, when the Bishops start to "clean house".  Basically, no more TLM in any parish churches; they can only be said at certain places, on certain days, by certain priests.  Wow.  
.
This is going to put major pressure on the FSSP.  On the one hand, if many of these priests leave new-rome over this, that would be great.  Hopefully they will join Tradition and be conditionally ordained.  On the other hand, I hope they don't join the SSPX because I don't trust +Fellay.
This struck me as well.  This seems to suggest that even if it is said it won't be on a Sunday.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Bergoglio's New Motu Proprio on TLM Has Arrived
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2021, 06:42:57 AM »
Yes, these are some of my same conclusions regarding this.  I also found these remarks in the Letter to the Bishops noteworthy:

But I am nonetheless saddened that the instrumental use of Missale Romanum of 1962 is often characterized by a rejection not only of the liturgical reform, but of the Vatican Council II itself, claiming, with unfounded and unsustainable assertions, that it betrayed the Tradition and the “true Church”.

The path of the Church must be seen within the dynamic of Tradition “which originates from the Apostles and progresses in the Church with the assistance of the Holy Spirit” (DV 8). A recent stage of this dynamic was constituted by Vatican Council II where the Catholic episcopate came together to listen and to discern the path for the Church indicated by the Holy Spirit.

To doubt the Council is to doubt the intentions of those very Fathers who exercised their collegial power in a solemn manner cuм Petro et sub Petro in an ecuмenical council,[14] and, in the final analysis, to doubt the Holy Spirit himself who guides the Church.

See, this last statement is not formally incorrect.  To claim that these people are the legitimate hierarchy and at the same time are destroying Tradition and the Church, that is in fact to deny that the Holy Spirit guides the Church.

There's only one logical answer:  We do not doubt that the Holy Spirit guides the Church.  We doubt whether you ARE the Church.