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Author Topic: Benedict XVI dead at 95  (Read 20896 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
« Reply #375 on: January 09, 2023, 09:44:25 AM »
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  • I completely agree with everything you said here.
    QVD did not answer. This is because the Scripture he attributed to be a Divine Law is not a Divine Law at all, which is easily discerned by what Our Lord said in that Scripture. I mean, if that's a Divine Law, then Luke 2:49 is Divine Law, so is the story of creation in Genesis, and so on, which is simply absurd.

    So you see, neither he nor even one sede has stepped up and answered even one of my questions. I thought you would answer but, oh well. Par for the course I guess. I do find it somewhat incredible that the questions I asked are taken as being insulting or offensive rather than being looked at as an opportunity to offer clear explanations.
    And this post is exactly why I won't bother.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #376 on: January 09, 2023, 09:46:45 AM »
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  • And this post is exactly why I won't bother.
    The guy believes heretics are still in the Church, so idk why anyone bothers
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #377 on: January 09, 2023, 10:00:18 AM »
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  • I completely agree with everything you said here.
    QVD did not answer. This is because the Scripture he attributed to be a Divine Law is not a Divine Law at all, which is easily discerned by what Our Lord said in that Scripture. I mean, if that's a Divine Law, then Luke 2:49 is Divine Law, so is the story of creation in Genesis, and so on, which is simply absurd.

    So you see, neither he nor even one sede has stepped up and answered even one of my questions. I thought you would answer but, oh well. Par for the course I guess. I do find it somewhat incredible that the questions I asked are taken as being insulting or offensive rather than being looked at as an opportunity to offer clear explanations.

    Stubborn,

    Sorry that it seems that no one wants to engage you on your position, but I don't think you have directly addressed theirs either.

    My purposes entering into this wasn't to engage on the issue, so I simply asked Quo for his assertion of the divine law basis for the opinion that a pope couldn't be a heretic. I for one responded to you earlier by quoting John Daly, who referred to Galatians 1:8-9 and 2 John 9-10. Quo cited Luke 22:32.

    Quote
    Galatians 1

    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema

    2 John

    [9] Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son. [10] If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you.

    Luke 22


    [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

    Their position is that necessary inferences from those verses are divine law supporting the position a pope can't be a heretic. To be fair, you haven't addressed directly their position, either.

    I think I can gather your position, but you haven't directly clarified it. I think your position is that a divine "law" is a commandment to do or not do something, or an indication that something is or is not, or can be or can't be - some type of prescription. I would imagine you would argue that the verses Daly and Quo cite do not necessitate their conclusions, although their inferences are allowable - but merely that.

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #378 on: January 09, 2023, 10:19:03 AM »
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  • I think your position is that a divine "law" is a commandment to do or not do something, ...

    This is what I was inferring as well.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #379 on: January 09, 2023, 10:21:20 AM »
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  • The guy believes heretics are still in the Church, so idk why anyone bothers

    So, for the longest time, I would argue with Stubborn by asserting that there wasn't a single theologian who ever believed that the Sacrament of Baptism sufficed for membership in the Church.  I was mistaken in that I later found exactly one (as cited by Msgr. Fenton).  But that's it.  Every other theologian held that heretics and schismatics are not Catholics, not members of the Church, even if baptized.  I should think that Pope Pius XII put an end to the question when he taught exactly that in an Encyclical, that heretics and schismatics are severed from the Church.  That theologian who held the view was active prior to the Pius XII Encyclical.

    Basically, then, Stubborn's ecclesiology is no different than that of Vatican II, which holds that all the baptized belong to the Church of Christ.


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #380 on: January 09, 2023, 11:34:49 AM »
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  • Stubborn,

    Sorry that it seems that no one wants to engage you on your position, but I don't think you have directly addressed theirs either.

    My purposes entering into this wasn't to engage on the issue, so I simply asked Quo for his assertion of the divine law basis for the opinion that a pope couldn't be a heretic. I for one responded to you earlier by quoting John Daly, who referred to Galatians 1:8-9 and 2 John 9-10. Quo cited Luke 22:32.

    Eh, I guess I never really expected anyone to answer anyway, but still wanted to try.

    Gal 1:8-9
    Says to "let him be anathema", are you saying that the sedes read it as Divine Law that "he's not an angel?"
    2 John 9-10
    Is saying to ignore him, have nothing to do with him, per the Haydock it does not mean we cannot pray for him. Are you saying the sedes read that as Divine Law that the man is not a man i.e. the pope is not a pope aka the seat is vacant?
    Luke 22:32
    Yes, the faith of Peter, the Apostles and their successors is explained in the Haydock for that Scripture, and we see their successors' faith has indeed failed these last 6 decades, but that of St. Peter's successors can never fail when they speak ex cathedra. This Scripture is referenced and is explained in V1 and in that sense only, I can agree it is Divine Law, but not outside of ex cathedra declarations. Which is why it makes no sense to me how they take this Divine Revelation of Our Lord and insist it is Divine Law.


    Quote
    Their position is that necessary inferences from those verses are divine law supporting the position a pope can't be a heretic. To be fair, you haven't addressed directly their position, either.

    I think I can gather your position, but you haven't directly clarified it. I think your position is that a divine "law" is a commandment to do or not do something, or an indication that something is or is not, or can be or can't be - some type of prescription. I would imagine you would argue that the verses Daly and Quo cite do not necessitate their conclusions, although their inferences are allowable - but merely that.
    I understand why they need a Divine Law that in any possible light might be interpreted in such a way as to say that a heretic cannot be pope, that I understand. But for me, I still do not see a Divine Law anywhere stating “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate."

    And I am not by any means alone here - there are many reputable trads who agree with me, Fr. Hesse for one. Listen to his talk on youtube "3500 bishops are wrong..." He spends almost 2 hours explaining.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #381 on: January 09, 2023, 12:08:46 PM »
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  • So, for the longest time, I would argue with Stubborn by asserting that there wasn't a single theologian who ever believed that the Sacrament of Baptism sufficed for membership in the Church.  I was mistaken in that I later found exactly one (as cited by Msgr. Fenton).  But that's it.  Every other theologian held that heretics and schismatics are not Catholics, not members of the Church, even if baptized.  I should think that Pope Pius XII put an end to the question when he taught exactly that in an Encyclical, that heretics and schismatics are severed from the Church.  That theologian who held the view was active prior to the Pius XII Encyclical.

    Basically, then, Stubborn's ecclesiology is no different than that of Vatican II, which holds that all the baptized belong to the Church of Christ.
    It doesn't say much for your advanced theological skills of finding truth when a total dumbell like me can find it.

    Never, not once, not ever, did I EVER assert "that the Sacrament of Baptism sufficed for membership in the Church."
    If you found one theologian who said that, he's wrong, but if you actually did look, you would've found a lot more than only one.

    All this is to say you have no clue what my (Catholic) ecclesiology is.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #382 on: January 09, 2023, 01:42:52 PM »
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  • Eh, I guess I never really expected anyone to answer anyway, but still wanted to try.

    Gal 1:8-9
    Says to "let him be anathema", are you saying that the sedes read it as Divine Law that "he's not an angel?"
    2 John 9-10
    Is saying to ignore him, have nothing to do with him, per the Haydock it does not mean we cannot pray for him. Are you saying the sedes read that as Divine Law that the man is not a man i.e. the pope is not a pope aka the seat is vacant?
    Luke 22:32
    Yes, the faith of Peter, the Apostles and their successors is explained in the Haydock for that Scripture, and we see their successors' faith has indeed failed these last 6 decades, but that of St. Peter's successors can never fail when they speak ex cathedra. This Scripture is referenced and is explained in V1 and in that sense only, I can agree it is Divine Law, but not outside of ex cathedra declarations. Which is why it makes no sense to me how they take this Divine Revelation of Our Lord and insist it is Divine Law.

    I understand why they need a Divine Law that in any possible light might be interpreted in such a way as to say that a heretic cannot be pope, that I understand. But for me, I still do not see a Divine Law anywhere stating “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate."

    And I am not by any means alone here - there are many reputable trads who agree with me, Fr. Hesse for one. Listen to his talk on youtube "3500 bishops are wrong..." He spends almost 2 hours explaining.

    Stubborn - no, the texts would not be relevant to the "una cuм" issue, but to the issue of whether a pope can be a heretic. I think Daly's texts and argument have a lot to say on the issue. Those Galatians 1 and 2 John texts are the ones that I struggle with on the issue not only of the pope but the whole Conciliar Church. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #383 on: January 10, 2023, 05:28:16 AM »
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  • Quote
    Stubborn - no, the texts would not be relevant to the "una cuм" issue, but to the issue of whether a pope can be a heretic. I think Daly's texts and argument have a lot to say on the issue. Those Galatians 1 and 2 John texts are the ones that I struggle with on the issue not only of the pope but the whole Conciliar Church.
    The whole "heretic cannot be pope because it is against Divine Law" error is necessary to maintain a modicuм of validity to the sede doctrine. That's the only reason for it. Maintaining a vacant chair is of paramount importance, we can even say that nothing else really matters. IMO it is only if you can (safely) view this discussion this way will what the sedes say make some type of sense, but still only on the surface.

    All sin, every single solitary sin ever committed no matter how small or how terribly bad, is against Divine Law. The sin of heresy is against Divine Law, so is the making of a law against divine law, the sin of stealing is against divine law, the sin of lying is against divine law, etc,.

    It is for a very, very good reason that the popes made it a law that the one elected, even if a heretic, is instantly pope upon his acceptance of the election. But the sedes absolutely and positively must reject this law - which, according to their own thinking, is a sin - against Divine Law.

    Add to that, the popes who made the law, are ipso facto guilty of sinning against Divine Law. Which of course leads to a conclusion they completely ignore, i.e. those popes lost their office by making a law against Divine Law.

    2 John says the same as Galatians, he says to not listen to "an angel from heaven" and to "let him be anathema." Why didn't St. Paul say "do not listen to him because he's not an angel from heaven?" Or "it will not be a false Gospel if he really is an angel from heaven?"

    Because the only thing that matters is to not listen to false Gospels, to not listen to lies wherever they come from, we are to flee the danger, not try to decide if he's really an angel - because whether he is or is not an angel from heaven does not matter one iota, it most certainly did not matter to St. Paul and it most certainly does not matter to anyone else. The only thing that matters is to not listen. That is what that Scripture is teaching. That's why St. Paul said what he said and did not elaborate on the [im]possibility of it all, or the [il]legitimacy  of the "angel from heaven".

    Consider that instead of fleeing, we go contrary to that Scripture and hang around and decide he really is an angel, the danger in that is that we will listen and believe a false Gospel - because we did not flee and did not "let him be anathema." Now for the heck of it, let's say that the angel is the pope - what matters is that we do not listen - without any consideration whatsoever to his [il]legitimacy. This is what St. Paul taught us to do - and as always, for very good reason.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #384 on: January 10, 2023, 06:07:12 AM »
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  • The whole "heretic cannot be pope because it is against Divine Law" error is necessary to maintain a modicuм of validity to the sede doctrine. That's the only reason for it. Maintaining a vacant chair is of paramount importance, we can even say that nothing else really matters. IMO it is only if you can (safely) view this discussion this way will what the sedes say make some type of sense, but still only on the surface.

    All sin, every single solitary sin ever committed no matter how small or how terribly bad, is against Divine Law. The sin of heresy is against Divine Law, so is the making of a law against divine law, the sin of stealing is against divine law, the sin of lying is against divine law, etc,.

    It is for a very, very good reason that the popes made it a law that the one elected, even if a heretic, is instantly pope upon his acceptance of the election. But the sedes absolutely and positively must reject this law - which, according to their own thinking, is a sin - against Divine Law.

    Add to that, the popes who made the law, are ipso facto guilty of sinning against Divine Law. Which of course leads to a conclusion they completely ignore, i.e. those popes lost their office by making a law against Divine Law.

    2 John says the same as Galatians, he says to not listen to "an angel from heaven" and to "let him be anathema." Why didn't St. Paul say "do not listen to him because he's not an angel from heaven?" Or "it will not be a false Gospel if he really is an angel from heaven?"

    Because the only thing that matters is to not listen to false Gospels, to not listen to lies wherever they come from, we are to flee the danger, not try to decide if he's really an angel - because whether he is or is not an angel from heaven does not matter one iota, it most certainly did not matter to St. Paul and it most certainly does not matter to anyone else. The only thing that matters is to not listen. That is what that Scripture is teaching. That's why St. Paul said what he said and did not elaborate on the [im]possibility of it all, or the [il]legitimacy  of the "angel from heaven".

    Consider that instead of fleeing, we go contrary to that Scripture and hang around and decide he really is an angel, the danger in that is that we will listen and believe a false Gospel - because we did not flee and did not "let him be anathema." Now for the heck of it, let's say that the angel is the pope - what matters is that we do not listen - without any consideration whatsoever to his [il]legitimacy. This is what St. Paul taught us to do - and as always, for very good reason.

    Do you realize that your argument, based on scripture, against ordaining women, can be dismissed in the same way as you have just done? Do you see the fallacy in your line of reasoning? Do you see how illogical it is? Spend some time and think about it.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #385 on: January 10, 2023, 06:37:35 AM »
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  • Do you realize that your argument, based on scripture, against ordaining women, can be dismissed in the same way as you have just done? Do you see the fallacy in your line of reasoning? Do you see how illogical it is? Spend some time and think about it.
    I was answering DR and your mind is still stuck on wild a hypothetical, which serves to prove what I said is true, that maintaining a vacant chair is of paramount importance, we can even say that nothing else really matters. The sede mindset, or at least your mindset revolves around an empty chair, nothing else really matters. You spend some time and think about it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #386 on: January 10, 2023, 06:49:52 AM »
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  • Do you realize that your argument, based on scripture, against ordaining women, can be dismissed in the same way as you have just done? Do you see the fallacy in your line of reasoning? Do you see how illogical it is? Spend some time and think about it.
     
    I don't think so, Quo. Stubborn wouldn't occupy himself with the question whether it was a "woman" talking in Church. It would suffice that it appears to be a woman, and Stubborn would insist on silence. I think he's making a valid distinction about the essence of the prohibition in a way. 

    What I think he's missing is the "anathema" part of Galatians, or the "receive him not into the house" part of 2 John. That suggests more than just don't listen, but rather consider the source outside the Church. It's the "anathema" part I struggle with, not the "not listen to." 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #387 on: January 10, 2023, 07:08:10 AM »
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  • I don't think so, Quo. Stubborn wouldn't occupy himself with the question whether it was a "woman" talking in Church. It would suffice that it appears to be a woman, and Stubborn would insist on silence. I think he's making a valid distinction about the essence of the prohibition in a way.

    What I think he's missing is the "anathema" part of Galatians, or the "receive him not into the house" part of 2 John. That suggests more than just don't listen, but rather consider the source outside the Church. It's the "anathema" part I struggle with, not the "not listen to."

    I focus mostly on "let him be" rather than on "anathema." Iow, St. Paul is warning us, not the angel, and he is telling us what the correct action is that we are to take. Same as Our Lord warning us "Beware of false profits," He is not warning the false prophets, he's warning us against a mortal danger, not the false prophets. St. Paul is echoing the same message.

    I already gave my opinion on the only purpose for wild hypotheticals such as a woman pope. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #388 on: January 10, 2023, 07:11:15 AM »
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  • I don't think so, Quo. Stubborn wouldn't occupy himself with the question whether it was a "woman" talking in Church. It would suffice that it appears to be a woman, and Stubborn would insist on silence. I think he's making a valid distinction about the essence of the prohibition in a way.

    What I think he's missing is the "anathema" part of Galatians, or the "receive him not into the house" part of 2 John. That suggests more than just don't listen, but rather consider the source outside the Church. It's the "anathema" part I struggle with, not the "not listen to."


    This is what I mean: 

    Quote
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

    Sed licet nos aut angelus de caelo evangelizet vobis praeterquam quod evangelizavimus vobis, anathema sit.

    [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

    Sicut praediximus, et nunc iterum dico : si quis vobis evangelizaverit praeter id quod accepistis, anathema sit.

    Douay-Rheims Bible, Galatians Chapter 1 (drbo.org)


    Here's the entry on "anathema" from a Catholic dictionary I posted a link to in the Library forum:


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #389 on: January 10, 2023, 07:29:38 AM »
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  • The whole "heretic cannot be pope because it is against Divine Law" error is necessary to maintain a modicuм of validity to the sede doctrine.

    Your hubris is sometimes breathtaking.  You're entitled to disagree, but this is not "sede doctrine," but the teaching of St. Robert Bellarmine that a manifest heretic cannot be Pope due to Divine Law.  But you just gratuitously waive it away as "error" because you say so, you who wouldn't know a distinction or theological nuance if it hit you in the face.  It's the same way you just "waive" away anything you don't like among 18th and 19th century theologians gratuitiously.  I've never said you're not entitled to disagree, but your arrogance in gratuitously dismissing these is unacceptable.  If you disagree, come up with a solid argument for why they're wrong and I'll listen, but no one is going to take your gratuitous dismissal nonsense seriously.

    There's the saying quod gratis affirmatur, gratis et negatur, that I am entitled to gratuitously reject any of your gratuitous assertions.