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Author Topic: Benedict XVI dead at 95  (Read 20920 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
« Reply #360 on: January 08, 2023, 03:03:51 PM »
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  • When they are in error, yes.

    So says Pope Stubborn! 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #361 on: January 08, 2023, 03:16:45 PM »
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  • If you read my post #307, I answered your question: “Peter was commissioned to confirm his brethren in the Faith. Obviously that would be incompatible and contradictory to his mission if he were a heretic teaching false doctrine.” Even DR accepted my reasoning.

    This is such an utterly fundamental Catholic teaching that even my 11 year old understands how a nonbeliever cannot possibly teach or confirm his brethren. This is why you thought I was evading your question when in fact I was mystified how anyone, who purportedly professes Catholicism, could possibly not see it. This is why the theologians that Father Cekada quoted didn’t feel the need to elaborate what Divine Law was in question.


    Now, in order for my point to sink in, do you understand why I asked you: ‘is it Divine Law that a woman cannot be a priest’? Can you answer that question?
    You're mystified because your answer is only your idea of Divine Law - God did not tell St. Peter if he ever became a heretic he would no longer be head of the Church - if He would have, THAT would be Divine Law. He commissioned St. Peter and all the Apostles to teach the faith, and even Judas was still an Apostle when he hung himself. Or do you actually think that he lost his office when he betrayed Our Lord, or lost it by committing ѕυιcιdє?

    And for crying out loud already, no, a woman cannot be a priest is not Divine Law, it is against the law of the Church  following the teaching of St. Paul who condemns the idea when he says "it is a shame for women to speak in the Church", he does not say it is against Divine Law for women to speak in the Church. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #362 on: January 08, 2023, 03:18:35 PM »
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  • So says Pope Stubborn!
    It mystifies me how anyone, who purportedly professes Catholicism, could possibly say such a thing.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #363 on: January 08, 2023, 03:21:14 PM »
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  • You're mystified because your answer is only your idea of Divine Law - God did not tell St. Peter if he ever became a heretic he would no longer be head of the Church - if He would have, THAT would be Divine Law. He commissioned St. Peter and all the Apostles to teach the faith, and even Judas was still an Apostle when he hung himself. Or do you actually think that he lost his office when he betrayed Our Lord, or lost it by committing ѕυιcιdє?

    And for crying out loud already, no, a woman cannot be a priest is not Divine Law, it is against the law of the Church  following the teaching of St. Paul who condemns the idea when he says "it is a shame for women to speak in the Church", he does not say it is against Divine Law for women to speak in the Church.


    Now we are getting somewhere. So if it’s not Divine Law and only Church Law, a pope can allow a woman to be ordained, correct?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #364 on: January 08, 2023, 03:26:37 PM »
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  • Name any other religion with a religious leader who would allow another who wasn't of the same Faith to be same leader.  Could a Catholic (non-buddhist) be Dalai Lama?  Could a Protestant (non-Jєω) be a Rabbi?  Even false religions would never say (nor allow!) someone outside of their religion could be a religious leader in that religion.  And yet, we're supposed to believe that the TRUE religion with the Vicar of Christ would expect anything less...:facepalm: 

    For me, it's basic logic let alone theology. 
    Well gee 2V, who'd a ever guessed? All you are saying has been repeated ad infinitum on CI alone. How about taking a stab at answering:
    1) What advantage over R&R does sedeism have?
    2) What purpose does sedism serve?
    3) How does sedeism profit souls unto salvation?

    Example answers:
    1) It makes me superior to R&R
    2) It serves to disunify the faithful
    3) It aids my salvation because what is said in the above quote is only known through sedeism.

    I want to know why a sede is a sede. If you were to say because there is no pope, then all that reason does is cause disunity.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #365 on: January 08, 2023, 03:28:34 PM »
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  • Now we are getting somewhere. So if it’s not Divine Law and only Church Law, a pope can allow a woman to be ordained, correct?
    No, not correct. Did you read what I wrote? The Church says no, St. Paul says no, even Pope JP2 said no. Stop with absurd hypotheticals.
    I am done with screen time for today.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #366 on: January 08, 2023, 03:43:46 PM »
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  • No, not correct. Did you read what I wrote? The Church says no, St. Paul says no, even Pope JP2 said no. Stop with absurd hypotheticals.
    I am done with screen time for today.

    Do you understand that there is a difference between Church Law and Divine Law? Do you understand that Church Law is changeable and Divine Law is not? So, if Fr. Cekada and the theologians that he quoted said it was Church Law instead of Divine Law, would that change anything for you? You’re really confused, aren’t you? I think you’re starting to realize that the positions that maintain your house of cards are being exposed as falsehoods.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #367 on: January 08, 2023, 03:47:54 PM »
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  • Well gee 2V, who'd a ever guessed? All you are saying has been repeated ad infinitum on CI alone. How about taking a stab at answering:
    1) What advantage over R&R does sedeism have?
    2) What purpose does sedism serve?
    3) How does sedeism profit souls unto salvation?

    Example answers:
    1) It makes me superior to R&R
    2) It serves to disunify the faithful
    3) It aids my salvation because what is said in the above quote is only known through sedeism.

    I want to know why a sede is a sede. If you were to say because there is no pope, then all that reason does is cause disunity.
    Yeah, I know.  I probably stated it years ago.  Are you trying to tell me that you haven't stated the same thing ad infinitum on this forum for much longer than I? I'm not arguing with you Stubborn.  You know I'm not interested in getting into another sede vs non-sede "debate" (and quite honestly I thought you were done with going there too). I'm already ignoring two other anti-sedes.  I'm hoping I don't have to do the same with you as well. 

    It just boggles my mind how anyone can really believe that a non-Catholic can be a pope.  It's illogical.  It makes zero sense to me, and that is why I posted what I posted. 


    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #368 on: January 08, 2023, 04:12:04 PM »
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  • I'm pretty sure he's not talking about a conclave after Bergoglio potentially resigns within 30 days.  He's talking about a conclave regardless of what he does (since the "true pope" has died).
     
    I was allowing for the best-case scenario, i.e., PFB resigns and then there is a conclave, the need for which no one questions.  If he means that a conclave will inevitably take place regardless (and I don't think he's going to resign that quickly, maybe not at all), that's an awfully fatuous assertion to make.  What would be the mechanics of a conclave taking place with an ostensibly reigning Pope alive and kicking?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #369 on: January 09, 2023, 04:42:17 AM »
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  • Do you understand that there is a difference between Church Law and Divine Law? Do you understand that Church Law is changeable and Divine Law is not? So, if Fr. Cekada and the theologians that he quoted said it was Church Law instead of Divine Law, would that change anything for you? You’re really confused, aren’t you? I think you’re starting to realize that the positions that maintain your house of cards are being exposed as falsehoods.
    I understand Divine Law is a law given to us by God Himself. You SHOULD also understand it as I do BECAUSE that's what it is.  I understand that Church Law is a law established by the Church, by popes, canon law and some are universal laws, some are not. Some are changeable and can be abrogated, some cannot. And that all Church laws include and are subservient with Divine Law, and no Church law contradict Divine Law. It's not complicated.

     Fr. Cekada sites, as far as I can find, an author "Maroto" who wrote " Institutiones I.C. 2:784" in 1921 as his reference stating “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself…" This is typical Fr. Cekada, using some obscure writer who, far as I can find, is not even a priest let a lone a theologian, certainly NOT any authority within the Church. The only reason he cited him was because what he wrote, fit his agenda.

    This amounts to Fr. Cekada finding some nobody somewhere who wrote down error - and he ran with it to spread his opinion. And you run with it, and sedes all over the place run with it while evading the question and side tracking, not caring one iota about the truth of the matter while claiming the truth is what matters. Sadly, this is nothing new.

    No need to continue evading and side tracking, we've hit the usual, and sadly expected, impasse.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #370 on: January 09, 2023, 05:01:43 AM »
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  • Yeah, I know.  I probably stated it years ago.  Are you trying to tell me that you haven't stated the same thing ad infinitum on this forum for much longer than I? I'm not arguing with you Stubborn.  You know I'm not interested in getting into another sede vs non-sede "debate" (and quite honestly I thought you were done with going there too). I'm already ignoring two other anti-sedes.  I'm hoping I don't have to do the same with you as well. 
    No, I am not trying to tell you that I haven't stated the same thing a million times, rather, I am saying that by you  repeating the same thing does not give any answer whatsoever to the questions I'm asking. All I am after is for some sede to honestly answer those questions - that is all I'm after. Again, that is all I'm after, but apparently it's asking too much for someone to actually give clear answers to the clear questions. The last 10 - 15 pages of this thread is proving no sede has an answer, which fascinates me and boggles my mind.


    Quote
    It just boggles my mind how anyone can really believe that a non-Catholic can be a pope.  It's illogical.  It makes zero sense to me, and that is why I posted what I posted.
    I fully understand why your mind is boggled by the idea, as to why I can only guess. For me, I believe it is due to 1) sedes making the pope something more than human but slightly less than God. The result of doing that I believe Fr. Wathen nailed when he said:
    2) "sedevacantists argue themselves into a mentality of total lawlessness, the only consequence of which is that the total legal structure of the Church is either threatened, or it is violated or destroyed, that is the result of anarchism."

    In order to justify their mentality, I believe in this instance, per Fr. Cekada they pull up the "Divine Law" card, which does not exist, and at the same time does not matter. That's the mentality.

    It won't offend me if you put me on ignore, I still like to read your posts. Heck, this one was one of your longer posts lol

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #371 on: January 09, 2023, 05:12:58 AM »
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  • I understand Divine Law is a law given to us by God Himself. You SHOULD also understand it as I do BECAUSE that's what it is.  I understand that Church Law is a law established by the Church, by popes, canon law and some are universal laws, some are not. Some are changeable and can be abrogated, some cannot. And that all Church laws include and are subservient with Divine Law, and no Church law contradict Divine Law. It's not complicated.

     Fr. Cekada sites, as far as I can find, an author "Maroto" who wrote " Institutiones I.C. 2:784" in 1921 as his reference stating “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the Supreme Pontificate by the divine law itself…" This is typical Fr. Cekada, using some obscure writer who, far as I can find, is not even a priest let a lone a theologian, certainly NOT any authority within the Church. The only reason he cited him was because what he wrote, fit his agenda.

    This amounts to Fr. Cekada finding some nobody somewhere who wrote down error - and he ran with it to spread his opinion. And you run with it, and sedes all over the place run with it while evading the question and side tracking, not caring one iota about the truth of the matter while claiming the truth is what matters. Sadly, this is nothing new.

    No need to continue evading and side tracking, we've hit the usual, and sadly expected, impasse. 

    :smirk:
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #372 on: January 09, 2023, 07:50:58 AM »
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  • No, I am not trying to tell you that I haven't stated the same thing a million times, rather, I am saying that by you  repeating the same thing does not give any answer whatsoever to the questions I'm asking. All I am after is for some sede to honestly answer those questions - that is all I'm after. Again, that is all I'm after, but apparently it's asking too much for someone to actually give clear answers to the clear questions. The last 10 - 15 pages of this thread is proving no sede has an answer, which fascinates me and boggles my mind.

    I fully understand why your mind is boggled by the idea, as to why I can only guess. For me, I believe it is due to 1) sedes making the pope something more than human but slightly less than God. The result of doing that I believe Fr. Wathen nailed when he said:
    2) "sedevacantists argue themselves into a mentality of total lawlessness, the only consequence of which is that the total legal structure of the Church is either threatened, or it is violated or destroyed, that is the result of anarchism."

    In order to justify their mentality, I believe in this instance, per Fr. Cekada they pull up the "Divine Law" card, which does not exist, and at the same time does not matter. That's the mentality.

    It won't offend me if you put me on ignore, I still like to read your posts. Heck, this one was one of your longer posts lol
    My point was that you accused me of repeating something that was already discussed on the forum ad infinitum when you are just as guilty of repeating things through the years.  Most of us long-timers are just as guilty.  I mean really, what's new under the sun?

    I think for those of us who have debated with you through the years, we recognize that answering your questions typically doesn't end there.  Regardless of how we answer (and I actually thought that QvD *did* answer), you will continue to be anti-sede and claim that we are the source of disunity.  Why would any of us want to bother with/subject ourselves to that?  Years ago, I may have done so, but I have learned who is really looking to debate with me on this topic and who is not.

    I have come to appreciate some of your posts, and we actually agree on some things, so I am not quite at the point of ignoring you.  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #373 on: January 09, 2023, 09:09:29 AM »
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  • My point was that you accused me of repeating something that was already discussed on the forum ad infinitum when you are just as guilty of repeating things through the years.  Most of us long-timers are just as guilty.  I mean really, what's new under the sun?
    I completely agree with everything you said here.

    Quote
    I think for those of us who have debated with you through the years, we recognize that answering your questions typically doesn't end there.  Regardless of how we answer (and I actually thought that QvD *did* answer), you will continue to be anti-sede and claim that we are the source of disunity.  Why would any of us want to bother with/subject ourselves to that?  Years ago, I may have done so, but I have learned who is really looking to debate with me on this topic and who is not.
    QVD did not answer. This is because the Scripture he attributed to be a Divine Law is not a Divine Law at all, which is easily discerned by what Our Lord said in that Scripture. I mean, if that's a Divine Law, then Luke 2:49 is Divine Law, so is the story of creation in Genesis, and so on, which is simply absurd.

    So you see, neither he nor even one sede has stepped up and answered even one of my questions. I thought you would answer but, oh well. Par for the course I guess. I do find it somewhat incredible that the questions I asked are taken as being insulting or offensive rather than being looked at as an opportunity to offer clear explanations.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Benedict XVI dead at 95
    « Reply #374 on: January 09, 2023, 09:14:40 AM »
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  • QVD did not answer. This is because the Scripture he attributed to be a Divine Law is not a Divine Law at all, which is easily discerned by what Our Lord said in that Scripture. I mean, if that's a Divine Law, then Luke 2:49 is Divine Law, so is the story of creation in Genesis, and so on, which is simply absurd.

    So you see, neither he nor even one sede has stepped up and answered even one of my questions. I thought you would answer but, oh well. Par for the course I guess. I do find it somewhat incredible that the questions I asked are taken as being insulting or offensive rather than being looked at as an opportunity to offer clear explanations.

    Stupid me, I never learn…….
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?