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Author Topic: Benedict says rabbi has "unique experience of his [the Lord's] salvation."  (Read 1139 times)

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Offline Raoul76

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Thanks to RashaLampa at Pascendi's forum for the heads-up.  This is a heresy.

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Former Rabbi of Rome at 95 Gets Congrats From Pope

Benedict XVI Recognizes Toaff's Role in Dialogue

By Jesús Colina

VATICAN CITY, MAY 4, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI sent a message of congratulations to the former chief rabbi of Rome, Elio Toaff, for his 95th birthday, which was Monday.

The Pope's personal secretary, Monsignor Georg Gaenswein, read the message at the inaugural ceremony of the Elio Toaff Foundation for Hebrew Culture

"I think," the Holy Father writes, "using the expressions of the Psalm, how the Lord restored your soul, leading you along the right path, even through the darkest valley, at the time of the persecution and extermination of the Jєωιѕн People. The Lord, in his mysterious plans, wished you to have a unique experience of his salvation, becoming a sign of hope for the rebirth of many of your brothers and sisters."

"I am particularly happy to recall," the Pope adds, "your commitment to promoting fraternal relations between Catholics and Jєωs, and the sincere friendship that bound you to my venerated predecessor Pope John Paul II."

Toaff was the chief rabbi of Ancona, Italy, during World War II. He nearly lost his life at the hands of the nαzιs on various occasions.

At the end of the war, in 1946, he was named chief rabbi of Venice, and in 1951, given this same post in Rome. He remained the chief rabbi of Rome until 2001, when at age 86, he retired.

He has been a staunch supporter of dialogue with Christianity.

In 1958, on the occasion of Pope Pius XII's death, he affirmed: "More than on other occasions, we have had the great opportunity of experiencing the great compassion and the great generosity of this Pope during the years of the persecution and the terror, when it seemed that no hope remained for us."

What Toaff called his "life dream" was fulfilled when in 1986, Pope John Paul II visited the ѕуηαgσgυє of Rome in answer to his invitation.

Toaff and the Polish Pope had a close friendship up to the Pontiff's death. In fact, the rabbi is one of the people that John Paul II mentioned in his spiritual testament.

Benedict XVI's note concluded like it began, with a reference to Psalm 23, wishing that in the rabbi's life, these words would be fulfilled: "Only goodness and love will pursue me all the days of my life; I will dwell in the house of the Lord for years to come." And he ends, "Shalom!"


Yeah, this Rabbi is having a unique experience of salvation.  He's missing out on it in his own unique way.

Maybe I shouldn't laugh, even to myself, but I had to at that last feeble "Shalom."  So cheesy.  He does not have the charisma of the preceding anti-Pope so he can stop trying to be the life of the party.  It isn't working.

Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


Offline Caminus

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He is obviously referring to temporal salvation from being "exterminated."  It's always the same theme, a purely humanistic, worldly material discourse.  


Offline Belloc

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Does he beleive in Christ-if he is a rabbi, then answer=no, salvation=no
Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

Offline gladius_veritatis

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FWIW, eternal flames are, in fact, a "unique" experience where "salvation" is concerned.
"Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

Offline Caminus

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He's not talking about supernatural, eternal salvation since the man is still alive and he is speaking in the present/past tense.  I'm all for exposing errors, but the first condition in doing so is to correctly identify and properly characterize the error of which we would like to expose.  


Offline Raoul76

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Caminus said:
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He's not talking about supernatural, eternal salvation since the man is still alive and he is speaking in the present/past tense. I'm all for exposing errors, but the first condition in doing so is to correctly identify and properly characterize the error of which we would like to expose.


I knew what you would say but it doesn't work.  To survive some kind of trauma is not "salvation," especially not when you actually say it is the Lord's salvation.  When a Catholic Pope so-called says the "Lord" it means God, not Satan, and it is well known what His salvation really is.  If Benedict had said "God wanted you to have a unique experience of His mercy" that would be one thing, but he didn't say that, he said "salvation."  

Then the rabbi who has the "unique experience of salvation" becomes the "sign and hope of rebirth" for other Jєωs.  You would have to bend over backwards, Caminus ( although you have become quite expert at that, how is life as a pretzel? ) to say that, in this context, right after hearing about "salvation," that merely surviving is a "rebirth."  A Jєω who survives the h0Ɩ0cαųst is still a Jєω.  Yeah, a secular person could get a divorce or something and say "I feel reborn!"  But this is not a secular person.  It's a supposedly Catholic Pope using Catholic words and concepts.

Again, Benedict speaks right at the beginning of the "Lord" as in the Catholic God, and then goes on to talk about rebirth and salvation.  You cannot start a sentence in a Catholic way and then shift gears on a dime into materialistic discourse.  He is using Catholic terminology -- salvation; rebirth -- because he is trying to give VII Catholics the impression that Jєωs can be saved and their religion is valid.  

As usual, he's trying to have it both ways, and you are giving it to him.  Yes, he is trying to be clever and is using the words in an ambiguous way thinking that no one can accuse him of heresy.  We know this technique from Vatican II and from all the encyclicals, we should be familiar with it by now.  Your argument is that the anti-Popes sidestep heresy through careful ambiguity -- it's nice to see you support them in their aims ( NOT!!! ) -- but in reality it is impossible to try to insinuate heresy and error without at least from time to time actually falling into heresy and error.  It is only natural that when someone is leaning too hard on the garden gate it is going to break and they are going to take a tumble into the mud.  

You would attribute to them a superhuman cleverness where they can erode the Church for almost fifty years now through ambiguity while never, ever actually falling into error.  This is simply disingenuous, there are heaps and heaps of errors and heresies that are piled up neck-deep by now.  Benedict of course is masterful at compressing three or four errors into one sentence and playing them off against each other so they almost ( but not quite ) cancel each other out through their very unintelligibility.  Maybe later I'll do one of my parodies, because it's easier to imitate than to describe.

The reality is that they have fallen into heresy and error, but God in His mercy has allowed it to be subtle so that there is still hope for certain people in VII.  The average Catholic is not going to understand the finer points of justification, for instance, or be able to see why the Joint Declaration on Justification is heretical.  God won't condemn some Mexican gardener for not getting that.  It all depends on your intelligence and how much you understand.  I'm not sure you have much of an excuse, Caminus.
Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

Offline Alexandria

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If someone here speaks several languages, perhaps they can dig up what Benedict said in the original language and see if the word that was translated as "salvation" can be translated differently.

In any event, I don't know what the surprise is since, from my understanding (I know I'll be corrected if I am wrong) the post-Vatican II popes have made it quite clear that the Jєωs are saved.

Offline Caminus

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Sorry Mike, your interpretation makes no sense because you're forcing the word "salvation" into a meaning that isn't there.  The notion of "temporal" salvation goes back to the beginning of the world and God rains upon both the just and the wicked.


Offline SJB

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Quote from: Caminus
Sorry Mike, your interpretation makes no sense because you're forcing the word "salvation" into a meaning that isn't there.  The notion of "temporal" salvation goes back to the beginning of the world and God rains upon both the just and the wicked.


Except any experience of HIS salvation could not be temporal. I agree that salvation is the wrong word here.
It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

Offline Caminus

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It's an old Jєωιѕн propensity to look towards the temporal salvation of God.  Benedict apparently caters to that just like everything else.  It's quite nauseating.  

Offline SJB

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Quote from: Caminus
It's an old Jєωιѕн propensity to look towards the temporal salvation of God.  Benedict apparently caters to that just like everything else.  It's quite nauseating.  


So how is he confirming his brethern in THE FAITH?
It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


Offline Caminus

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You mean has he failed in his duty?  I would say so.