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Author Topic: Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"  (Read 11205 times)

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Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
« on: November 01, 2011, 08:43:21 PM »
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  • Oh brother. Pay close attention to the part I have bolded in the last paragraph...


    Pope Benedict XVI’s address in the basilica of Santa Maria degli Angeli, Assisi, before representatives of the world’s religions and non-believers:

    Dear Brothers and Sisters,
    Distinguished Heads and Representatives of Churches, Ecclesial Communities and World Religions,
    Dear Friends,

    Twenty-five years have passed since Blessed Pope John Paul II first invited representatives of the world’s religions to Assisi to pray for peace. What has happened in the meantime? What is the state of play with regard to peace today? At that time the great threat to world peace came from the division of the earth into two mutually opposed blocs. A conspicuous symbol of this division was the Berlin Wall which traced the border between two worlds right through the heart of the city. In 1989, three years after Assisi, the wall came down, without bƖσσdshɛd. Suddenly the vast arsenals that stood behind the wall were no longer significant. They had lost their terror. The peoples’ will to freedom was stronger than the arsenals of violence. The question as to the causes of this dramatic change is complex and cannot be answered with simple formulae. But in addition to economic and political factors, the deepest reason for the event is a spiritual one: behind material might there were no longer any spiritual convictions. The will to freedom was ultimately stronger than the fear of violence, which now lacked any spiritual veneer. For this victory of freedom, which was also, above all, a victory of peace, we give thanks. What is more, this was not merely, nor even primarily, about the freedom to believe, although it did include this. To that extent we may in some way link all this to our prayer for peace.

    But what happened next? Unfortunately, we cannot say that freedom and peace have characterized the situation ever since. Even if there is no threat of a great war hanging over us at present, nevertheless the world is unfortunately full of discord. It is not only that sporadic wars are continually being fought – violence as such is potentially ever present and it is a characteristic feature of our world. Freedom is a great good. But the world of freedom has proved to be largely directionless, and not a few have misinterpreted freedom as somehow including freedom for violence. Discord has taken on new and frightening guises, and the struggle for freedom must engage us all in a new way.

    Let us try to identify the new faces of violence and discord more closely. It seems to me that, in broad strokes, we may distinguish two types of the new forms of violence, which are the very antithesis of each other in terms of their motivation and manifest a number of differences in detail. Firstly there is terrorism, for which in place of a great war there are targeted attacks intended to strike the opponent destructively at key points, with no regard for the lives of innocent human beings, who are cruelly killed or wounded in the process. In the eyes of the perpetrators, the overriding goal of damage to the enemy justifies any form of cruelty. Everything that had been commonly recognized and sanctioned in international law as the limit of violence is overruled. We know that terrorism is often religiously motivated and that the specifically religious character of the attacks is proposed as a justification for the reckless cruelty that considers itself entitled to discard the rules of morality for the sake of the intended “good”. In this case, religion does not serve peace, but is used as justification for violence.

    The post-Enlightenment critique of religion has repeatedly maintained that religion is a cause of violence and in this way it has fuelled hostility towards religions. The fact that, in the case we are considering here, religion really does motivate violence should be profoundly disturbing to us as religious persons. In a way that is more subtle but no less cruel, we also see religion as the cause of violence when force is used by the defenders of one religion against others. The religious delegates who were assembled in Assisi in 1986 wanted to say, and we now repeat it emphatically and firmly: this is not the true nature of religion. It is the antithesis of religion and contributes to its destruction. In response, an objection is raised: how do you know what the true nature of religion is? Does your assertion not derive from the fact that your religion has become a spent force? Others in their turn will object: is there such a thing as a common nature of religion that finds expression in all religions and is therefore applicable to them all? We must ask ourselves these questions, if we wish to argue realistically and credibly against religiously motivated violence. Herein lies a fundamental task for interreligious dialogue – an exercise which is to receive renewed emphasis through this meeting. As a Christian I want to say at this point: yes, it is true, in the course of history, force has also been used in the name of the Christian faith. We acknowledge it with great shame. But it is utterly clear that this was an abuse of the Christian faith, one that evidently contradicts its true nature. The God in whom we Christians believe is the Creator and Father of all, and from him all people are brothers and sisters and form one single family. For us the Cross of Christ is the sign of the God who put “suffering-with” (compassion) and “loving-with” in place of force. His name is “God of love and peace” (2 Cor 13:11). It is the task of all who bear responsibility for the Christian faith to purify the religion of Christians again and again from its very heart, so that it truly serves as an instrument of God’s peace in the world, despite the fallibility of humans.

    If one basic type of violence today is religiously motivated and thus confronts religions with the question as to their true nature and obliges all of us to undergo purification, a second complex type of violence is motivated in precisely the opposite way: as a result of God’s absence, his denial and the loss of humanity which goes hand in hand with it. The enemies of religion – as we said earlier – see in religion one of the principal sources of violence in the history of humanity and thus they demand that it disappear. But the denial of God has led to much cruelty and to a degree of violence that knows no bounds, which only becomes possible when man no longer recognizes any criterion or any judge above himself, now having only himself to take as a criterion. The horrors of the cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs reveal with utter clarity the consequences of God’s absence.

    Yet I do not intend to speak further here about state-imposed atheism, but rather about the decline of man, which is accompanied by a change in the spiritual climate that occurs imperceptibly and hence is all the more dangerous. The worship of mammon, possessions and power is proving to be a counter-religion, in which it is no longer man who counts but only personal advantage. The desire for happiness degenerates, for example, into an unbridled, inhuman craving, such as appears in the different forms of drug dependency. There are the powerful who trade in drugs and then the many who are seduced and destroyed by them, physically and spiritually. Force comes to be taken for granted and in parts of the world it threatens to destroy our young people. Because force is taken for granted, peace is destroyed and man destroys himself in this peace vacuum.

    The absence of God leads to the decline of man and of humanity. But where is God? Do we know him, and can we show him anew to humanity, in order to build true peace? Let us first briefly summarize our considerations thus far. I said that there is a way of understanding and using religion so that it becomes a source of violence, while the rightly lived relationship of man to God is a force for peace. In this context I referred to the need for dialogue and I spoke of the constant need for purification of lived religion. On the other hand I said that the denial of God corrupts man, robs him of his criteria and leads him to violence.

    In addition to the two phenomena of religion and anti-religion, a further basic orientation is found in the growing world of agnosticism: people to whom the gift of faith has not been given, but who are nevertheless on the lookout for truth, searching for God. Such people do not simply assert: “There is no God”. They suffer from his absence and yet are inwardly making their way towards him, inasmuch as they seek truth and goodness. They are “pilgrims of truth, pilgrims of peace”. They ask questions of both sides. They take away from militant atheists the false certainty by which these claim to know that there is no God and they invite them to leave polemics aside and to become seekers who do not give up hope in the existence of truth and in the possibility and necessity of living by it. But they also challenge the followers of religions not to consider God as their own property, as if he belonged to them, in such a way that they feel vindicated in using force against others. These people are seeking the truth, they are seeking the true God, whose image is frequently concealed in the religions because of the ways in which they are often practised. Their inability to find God is partly the responsibility of believers with a limited or even falsified image of God. So all their struggling and questioning is in part an appeal to believers to purify their faith, so that God, the true God, becomes accessible. Therefore I have consciously invited delegates of this third group to our meeting in Assisi, which does not simply bring together representatives of religious institutions. Rather it is a case of being together on a journey towards truth, a case of taking a decisive stand for human dignity and a case of common engagement for peace against every form of destructive force. Finally I would like to assure you that the Catholic Church will not let up in her fight against violence, in her commitment for peace in the world. We are animated by the common desire to be “pilgrims of truth, pilgrims of peace”.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #1 on: November 01, 2011, 08:46:36 PM »
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  • He probably praises them because he is an agnostic himself.


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #2 on: November 01, 2011, 08:47:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    He probably praises them because he is an agnostic himself.


    That wouldn't really surprise me...
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #3 on: November 01, 2011, 08:59:51 PM »
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  • Catholicism anathematizes those who deny that it is a matter of natural reason that a Creator exists who judges the good and the bad.  "Pilgrims of Truth"?


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #4 on: November 01, 2011, 09:08:47 PM »
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  • Indeed, Telesphorus. Of course, this is the same flaming liberal who had this to say in 1982:

    Quote
    Benedict XVI, Principles of Catholic Theology (1982), p. 263: “That which in Luther makes all else bearable because of the greatness of his spiritual fervor…”
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #5 on: November 02, 2011, 01:16:35 PM »
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  • You cannot call someone a "Pilgrim of Truth" when their views are contrary to natural reason.  It has nothing to do with "respect" or "disrespect" - but certainly false religions do not deserve respect since those who practice them violate the First Commandment.  No Catholic can respect sinning against God.  Sorry!

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #6 on: November 02, 2011, 02:05:09 PM »
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  • False worship is sinful.  That is not an opinion.  You apparently do not accept the First Commandment.  That's heresy.  You cannot possibly have the same religion as those who were martyred because they refused to practice idolatry.

    And anyone who read "Introduction to Christianity" cannot possibly believe Benedict XVI has the same religion either.

    He casts doubt on the fundamental teachings of the Catholic religion.  There is little doubt he has the same doubts about the existence of the Christian God, and therefore of any god.  That is why I think it's justified to speculate that he is probably an agnostic.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #7 on: November 02, 2011, 02:14:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: aquinasg
    If you are searching for the truth honestly, than you can be a pilgrim of truth. And if non-Christians do not know the truth about the faith, God CAN still accept their imperfect prayers


    One does not need to have Faith to know that there is a Creator who judges.  Those who deny the possibility of knowing God are not using reason, therefore they are not seeking truth.  


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #8 on: November 02, 2011, 02:19:23 PM »
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  • Those who believe false worship is not objectively sinful do not hold the Catholic Faith.  Objective sins must be called what they are, regardless of ignorance in lack of culpability.  They can not be accepted or respected.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #9 on: November 02, 2011, 03:10:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: aquinasg
    I doubt the Pope is an agnostic. And I don't think that all agnostics are culpable for their situation. In fact, I know some whom I know are innocent in this regard.

    People who have problem with showing any respect for non-Christian religions should read 2 Kings 5:18-19


    Benedict may not be an agnostic, but he is certainly a heretic.

    aquinas, the Council of Trent says that those who reject God are anathema. Agnostics don't believe in God, their belief is that He MIGHT exist but they certainly do not recognize Him. One time a priest asked a girl if she believed in God and she said "I don't know". The priest responded "Then you don't believe in Him".

    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #10 on: November 02, 2011, 03:11:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: aquinasg
    Pius IX (again) QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE (On Promotion Of False
    Doctrines)  Encyclical Promulgated on 10 August 1863 vs. Mario:
    "9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any
    way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same
    bonds of faith and love."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem, December 9, 1854: "Now, in truth, who
    would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an
    ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate
    dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released
    from these corporeal chains 'we shall see God as He is' (1 John 3.2), we
    shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy
    and justice are united; but as long as we are on earth, weighed down by
    this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in
    accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one
    baptism" (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."


    Pius IX isn't saying we should respect religions that spit in God's Face. He is saying that we should speak the truth in a loving way.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #11 on: November 02, 2011, 03:16:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: aquinasg
    And it is absurb to say non-Christians cannot pray at all. If they are in good will, their prayers go to God and do not violate the 1st commandment. There mental ideas do not necessarily mean their hearts can't pray honestly


    Are you an escapee from Catholic Answers? You obviously don't know what the 1st Commandment means. Buddhists, muslims, hinduists, pagans, etc. all worship false gods. What do you think "false gods" means?

    Saying all those people of false religions are of good will is like saying that a luciferian (someone who idiotically thinks lucifer is the master) who is in "good will" still has their prayers go to God and does not violate the First Commandment. That is just not smart reasoning. Either you're for God or for the devil, no in-between.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #12 on: November 02, 2011, 03:21:15 PM »
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  • According to the Bible:

    Quote
    But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #13 on: November 02, 2011, 03:42:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: aquinasg
    Your position is absurd.


    My position is in line with Traditional Catholic Dogma yet it is absurd?

    Quote
    Non-Christians can still pray because we are all religious by nature.


    I never said they couldn't pray. What I said was their prayers aren't going to God, their religions do not glorify Him.

    Quote
    An innocent Muslim may call God Allah, but so what?


    You can't worship God if you reject His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. The Council of Trent says those who reject the Trinity are anathema.

    Quote
    If there is nothing "false" in his heart when he prays, his prayer goes to God. How can you possibly say that is devil worship.


    Then how do you explain the Church Dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church? If you reject God, you cannot be saved, and your prayers do not go to Him.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Benedict: Agnostics are "pilgrims of truth"
    « Reply #14 on: November 02, 2011, 03:43:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: aquinasg
    "Buddhists, muslims, hinduists, pagans, etc. all worship false gods."

    Huh? FALSE GODS DON'T EXIST. Their confused mental concept of the divinity does not necessarily taint their hearts. God looks at peoples intentions, not there philosophical ignorances


    Are you familiar with what the First Commandment says?

    "Thy shalt have no false gods before Me".
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.