Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth  (Read 507 times)

0 Members and 12 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline AnthonyPadua

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2765
  • Reputation: +1389/-313
  • Gender: Male
Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
« on: Today at 03:56:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    St. Robert Bellarmine, On Purgatory, Book 2, Chap. 6: “The eighth is the common position of the scholastics: that Purgatory is within the bowels of the earth, near to Hell itself.  The scholastics by a common consensus designate within the earth four cavities, or one divided into four parts: one for the damned; another for those to be purged; the third for infants dying without baptism; the fourth for the just who died before the passion of Christ, which now remains empty.”
    The Dimonds posts this quote recently, I thought it was quite interesting. I have never considered purgatory also being in the earth.

    Online Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1511
    • Reputation: +1211/-90
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #1 on: Today at 07:08:51 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0


  • Sheol means "the place of the dead".  Every soul who is not in Heaven goes there, either permanently, in Hell and in the Limbo of the Infants, or temporarily, in Purgatory. The Limbo of the Patriarcs in empty, as quote says.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48233
    • Reputation: +28485/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #2 on: Today at 09:08:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, it's interesting, but apart from pure speculation, I'd like to see if they have some actual reasons for saying this.  Perhaps something the Church Fathers said?  Now, one problem with that is the notion of Limbo of Infants wasn't developed until the 12th century, and at the same, some rejected the notion as Pelagian.  So, then, if the concept had just been devleoped in the 12th century, how could they know where it is?

    I personally believe that those in Limbo will end up in some place that's adjacent to where the Kingdom of Heaven proper would be, and that they would interract with those who have been saved.  Of course, that would be then, when they all have bodies after final resurrection.

    Now, I do think there's consensus regarding the location of Hell being in the earth, and also the Limbo of the Fathers, since otherwise Our Lord "descending" to the "inferos" (lower regions) would make no sense.

    I also don't know what the rational for putting Purgatory down there would be.

    Hell, yes.  Limbo of the Fathers, yes.  But for Purgatory and the Limbo of Infants ... I think we simply don't know and it's pure speculation.

    IF the Limbo of Infants is in the nether regions, furthermore, what's to say they could not be inhabiting the place where the Fathers used to be before they had been liberated, and that the place is currently empty?  I don't think that part follows either.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48233
    • Reputation: +28485/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 09:18:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Dimonds posts this quote recently, I thought it was quite interesting. I have never considered purgatory also being in the earth.

    I've never thought of Limbo being beneath the earth either, since my conception of it is that as the soul becomes more and more purified, it rises closer and closer to Heaven, and not that "OK, now you're purified, and you can go up to Heaven now."  I conceive of the ascent toward Heaven being more of a continuum, where you get closer and closer as you go through your purification, and in fact the closer you get and the more of it you see, the more ardently you long for it, and it's that longing that draws you in (throught the suffering) to that finaly entry into Heaven.

    Online Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1511
    • Reputation: +1211/-90
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 09:43:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • As I understand it, there's no suffering in Heaven, and there's nothing up there apart from it. So, as Purgatory is a sort of temporary Hell, it makes sense for it to be down, and not up. The story of Lazarus also seems to imply that the Limbo of the Patriarchs and Hell are close to each other.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48233
    • Reputation: +28485/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 09:56:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • As I understand it, there's no suffering in Heaven, and there's nothing up there apart from it. So, as Purgatory is a sort of temporary Hell, it makes sense for it to be down, and not up. The story of Lazarus also seems to imply that the Limbo of the Patriarchs and Hell are close to each other.

    We know that Limbo of the Patriarchs is "down" due to the Creed indicating that Our Lord "descendit ad inferos", with inferos being the nether regions.

    In the parable about Lazarus, he mentioned a gulf or chasm that seprated those in the "bosom of Abraham" (= paradise, = Limbo Patrum), so that COULD mean that the chasm is the gap between where Heaven is, but not necessarily, where there could have been a chasm between the two.

    I don't see Purgatory as temporary Hell at all, but more delayed Heaven, since those in Purgatory are in a state of grace, justification, friendship with God.

    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5164
    • Reputation: +2040/-428
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 12:55:29 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Remind me if you wish, but I recall decades ago, listening to radio or such that there was a drilling of the earth to go as far as one could go.  the work men heard diabolical screams and cries and the work men ran!

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5215
    • Reputation: +2041/-249
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 04:19:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Now, I do think there's consensus regarding the location of Hell being in the earth, and also the Limbo of the Fathers, since otherwise Our Lord "descending" to the "inferos" (lower regions) would make no sense.
    Not directly related to the subject of Limbo, but your use of the word "inferos" raises a question I've had.

    I have a Latin Rosary pamphlet that says in the Credo "descendit ad inferos..."




    I just assumed that this was a typo, and should have been "infernos".  Now I am having my doubts.  

    I realize that attitudes towards Taylor Marshall vary widely across the traditionalist spectrum, and I'm not seeking to get that discussion started (I don't know all that much about him myself), but I found this:

    https://taylormarshall.com/2017/03/descended-hell-latin-greek-versions-apostles-creed.html


    Offline Miseremini

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4786
    • Reputation: +3853/-322
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 04:39:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Philippians 2:;10  "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth"

    Would "under the earth" refer to Hell or Purgatory?




    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48233
    • Reputation: +28485/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 04:49:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Philippians 2:;10  "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth"

    Would "under the earth" refer to Hell or Purgatory?

    I think that's hard to say, but he said EVERY knee, so that would include Hell, where those in Hell would bend the knee by force.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48233
    • Reputation: +28485/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 04:56:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not directly related to the subject of Limbo, but your use of the word "inferos" raises a question I've had.

    I have a Latin Rosary pamphlet that says in the Credo "descendit ad inferos..."




    I just assumed that this was a typo, and should have been "infernos".  Now I am having my doubts. 

    I realize that attitudes towards Taylor Marshall vary widely across the traditionalist spectrum, and I'm not seeking to get that discussion started (I don't know all that much about him myself), but I found this:

    https://taylormarshall.com/2017/03/descended-hell-latin-greek-versions-apostles-creed.html

    So, inferos and infernos are actually just a variation on the same word, with the "n" having been added later.  In the latter usage, it GENERALLY was thought to be synonymous with "Hell", but it's really the same word.  In English we have the derivative word "infernal", which generally refers to Hell proper and the fires of Hell, and it's why some people think that Christ descended into the actual Hell of the damned, but He did not.  I'm not sure how the "n" got added over time, but most official versions (e.g. from Trent) have it without the "n" ... as "inferos".


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48233
    • Reputation: +28485/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #11 on: Today at 04:58:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Remind me if you wish, but I recall decades ago, listening to radio or such that there was a drilling of the earth to go as far as one could go.  the work men heard diabolical screams and cries and the work men ran!

    So, that was the one Russia project, the "Kola Superdeep", and it only went 7.5 miles.  There's controversy about the screams, whether that was just urban legend made up by someone.

    Online Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1511
    • Reputation: +1211/-90
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bellarmine: Purgatory Is Within The Earth
    « Reply #12 on: Today at 06:42:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Roman Catechism:

    https://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/ApostlesCreed05.shtml


    Quote
    ARTICLE V : "HE DESCENDED INTO HELL, THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD"


    Importance Of This Article

    To know the glory of the burial of our Lord Jesus Christ, of which we last treated, is highly important; but of still higher importance is it to the faithful to know the splendid triumphs which He obtained by having subdued the devil and despoiled the abodes of hell. Of these triumphs, and also of His Resurrection, we are now about to speak.
    Although the latter presents to us a subject which might with propriety be treated under a separate and distinct head, yet following the example of the holy Fathers, we have deemed it fitting to unite it with His descent into hell.

    First Part of this Article: "He Descended into Hell"

    In the first part of this Article, then, we profess that immediately after the death of Christ His soul descended into hell, and dwelt there as long as His body remained in the tomb; and also that the one Person of Christ was at the same time in hell and in the sepulchre. Nor should this excite surprise; for, as we have already frequently said, although His soul was separated from His body, His Divinity was never parted from either His soul or His body.

    "Hell"

    As the pastor, by explaining the meaning of the word hell in this place may throw considerable light on the exposition of this Article, it is to be observed that by the word hell is not here meant the sepulchre, as some have not less impiously than ignorantly imagined; for in the preceding Article we learned that Christ the Lord was buried, and there was no reason why the Apostles, in delivering an Article of faith, should repeat the same thing in other and more obscure terms.
    Hell, then, here signifies those secret abodes in which are detained the souls that have not obtained the happiness of heaven. In this sense the word is frequently used in Scripture. Thus the Apostle says: At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and in hell; and in the Acts of the Apostles St. Peter says that Christ the Lord is again risen, having loosed the sorrows of hell.

    Different Abodes Called Hell"
    These abodes are not all of the same nature, for among them is that most loathsome and dark prison in which the souls of the damned are tormented with the unclean spirits in eternal and inextinguishable fire. This place is called gehenna, the bottomless pit, and is hell strictly so called.
    Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,' on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine.
    Lastly, the third kind of abode is that into which the souls of the just before the coming of Christ the Lord, were received, and where, without experiencing any sort of pain, but supported by the blessed hope of redemption, they enjoyed peaceful repose. To liberate these holy souls, who, in the bosom of Abraham were expecting the Saviour, Christ the Lord descended into hell.

    "He Descended"

    We are not to imagine that His power and virtue only, and not also His soul, descended into hell; but we are firmly to believe that His soul itself, really and substantially, descended thither, according to this conclusive testimony of David: Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell.
    But although Christ descended into hell, His supreme power was in no degree lessened, nor was the splendour of His sanctity obscured by any blemish. His descent served rather to prove that whatever had been foretold of His sanctity was true; and that, as He had previously demonstrated by so many miracles, He was truly the Son of God.
    This we shall easily understand by comparing the causes of the descent of Christ with those of other men. They descended as captives; He as free and victorious among the dead, to subdue those demons by whom, in consequence of guilt, they were held in captivity. Furthermore all others descended, either to endure the most acute torments, or, if exempt from other pain, to be deprived of the vision of God, and to be tortured by the delay of the glory and happiness for which they yearned; Christ the Lord descended, on the contrary, not to suffer, but to liberate the holy and the just from their painful captivity, and to impart to them the fruit of His Passion. His supreme dignity and power, therefore, suffered no diminution by His descent into hell.

    Why He Descended into Hell

    To Liberate The Just
    Having explained these things, the pastor should next proceed to teach that Christ the Lord descended into hell, in order that having despoiled the demons, He might liberate from prison those holy Fathers and the other just souls, and might bring them into heaven with Himself. This He accomplished in an admirable and most glorious manner; for His august presence at once shed a celestial lustre upon the captives and filled them with inconceivable joy and delight. He also imparted to them that supreme happiness which consists in the vision of God, thus verifying His promise to the thief on the cross: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
    This deliverance of the just was long before predicted by Osee in these words: O death, I will be thy death; O hell, I will be thy bite; ' and also by the Prophet Zachary: Thou also by the blood of thy testament hast sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit, wherein is no water; and lastly, the same is expressed by the Apostle in these words: Despoiling the principalities and powers, he hath exposed them confidently in open show, triumphing over them in himself.
    But the better to understand the efficacy of this mystery we should frequently call to mind that not only the just who were born after the coming of our Lord, but also those who preceded Him from the days of Adam, or who shall be born until the end of time, obtain their salvation through the benefit of His Passion. Wherefore before His death and Resurrection heaven was closed against every child of Adam. The souls of the just, on their departure from this life, were either borne to the bosom of Abraham; or, as is still the case with those who have something to be washed away or satisfied for, were purified in the fire of purgatory.

    To Proclaim His Power
    Another reason why Christ the Lord descended into hell is that there, as well as in heaven and on earth, He might proclaim His power and authority, and that every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.
    And here, who is not filled with admiration and astonishment when he contemplates the infinite love of God for man! Not satisfied with having undergone for our sake a most cruel death, He penetrates the inmost recesses of the earth to transport into bliss the souls whom He so dearly loved and whose liberation from thence He had achieved.