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Author Topic: Beatification and Canonization Since Vatican II: 3-Part Study  (Read 7880 times)

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Beatification and Canonization Since Vatican II: 3-Part Study
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2014, 05:36:25 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: SeanJohnson
The man charges with defending papal infallibility at Vatican I says otherwise.


sigh ...

Quote from: Bishop Gasser
The infallibility of the Roman Pontiff is obtained, not by way of revelation, nor by way of inspiration, but by way of divine assistance. That is why the pope, in virtue of his function, is bound to employ the means required in order to elucidate the truth sufficiently and to expound it correctly; and these means are the following: meetings with bishops, cardinals, and theologians, and having recourse to their counsels. The means will vary according to the matters treated; and we must believe that when Christ promised divine assistance to St. Peter and to his successors, this promise also included the requisite and necessary means so that the Pontiff could state his judgment infallibly.


You have absolutely no idea what this quote actually means and just twist whatever you can to back your non-Catholic position.

This means that the Holy Spirit does not infuse doctrine into the pope's mind directly (as by way or revelation or inspiration).  It doesn't work like that.  Instead the Holy Spirit assists the natural process by which a Pope reasons and thinks through the matter to be defined.  That's all it's saying.

This does NOT mean that if a Pope did not investigate a matter with the degree of thoroughness that would satisfy armchair theologians like SeanJohnson, the truth of any given definition remains in doubt.

We've demonstrated how your position turns infallibility into a meaningless tautology and makes infallibility something accidental to a proposition that just so happens to be true.

If I were elected Pope tomorrow and decided that I would solemnly proclaim the Assumption of St. Joseph, God would intervene to the point of striking me dead minutes before I could make the pronouncement if this were false doctrine.  Infallibility is given to protect the Church from false doctrine.




I can see your stupidity (and the stupidity of LOTI) are becomming occassions of sin to me.

You have not only demonstrated the inability to understand what you read, but even the inability to follow a thread.

I can see more serious discussion will have to be conducted offline.

Pity.

Offline Ladislaus

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Beatification and Canonization Since Vatican II: 3-Part Study
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2014, 06:03:32 PM »
Quote from: Neil Obstat
Ladislaus, you're attempting to make a mockery of the Recognize and Resist (R&R) position, but you're doing a very sloppy job of it.  Your argument is without merit and your process is full of holes.


R&R makes a mockery of the Holy Catholic Church.


Offline Ladislaus

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Beatification and Canonization Since Vatican II: 3-Part Study
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2014, 06:06:28 PM »
Quote from: Neil Obstat
I could take this apart like the house of cards that it is.  But is it even worth the effort?


Is that so?

Quote from: Ladislaus
R&R Ecclesiology in a nutshell:

Church can hold an Ecuмenical Council that's approved and promulgated by a legitimate Pope and this Ecuмenical Council can be completely polluted with error and can spread pernicious harmful error throughout the Church.

Church can promulgate a "bastard" Rite of Mass which is, if not questionably valid, at least harmful to faith and morals and which Catholics cannot attend in good conscience.

Church can promulgate a Code of Canon Law which is polluted with this same error and causes a complete breakdown in Church discipline.

Church can solemnly canonize saints and be in error on them.

Church can produce 50 years worth of Encyclicals that have to be essentially disregarded by Catholics due to being thoroughly polluted with grave error.

Catholics are REQUIRED to refuse submission to an Ecuмenical Council and to the papal magisterium in order to preserve their faith.


What about this sounds even remotely Catholic?

Offline SJB

Beatification and Canonization Since Vatican II: 3-Part Study
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2014, 07:51:03 PM »
When somebody (Sean Johnson)admits that truth is NOT being preserved, he, as a Catholic, must look for a cause other than reinventing the infallibility of the Church and that of the Pope!

Quote from: Relatio of Bp. Vincent Gasser, relator of the faith at Vatican I
The purpose of this prerogative is the preservation of truth in the Church. The special exercise of this prerogative occurs when there arise somewhere in the Church scandals against the faith, i.e., dissensions and heresies which the bishops of the individual churches or even gathered together in provincial council are unable to repress so that they are forced to appeal to the Apostolic See regarding the case, or when the bishops themselves are infected by the sad stain of error. And thereby we do not exclude the cooperation of the Church because the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff does not come to him in the manner of inspiration or of revelation but through a divine assistance. Therefore the Pope, by reason of his office and the gravity of the matter, is held to use the means suitable for properly discerning and aptly enunciating the truth. These means are councils, or the advice of the bishops, cardinals, theologians, etc. Indeed, the means are diverse according to the diversity of situations, and we should piously believe that, in the divine assistance promised to Peter and his successors by Christ, there is simultaneously contained a promise about the means which are necessary and suitable to make an infallible pontifical judgment.

[...]

 Finally we do not separate the Pope, even minimally, from the consent of the Church, as long as that consent is not laid down as a condition which is either antecedent or consequent. We are not able to separate the Pope from the consent of the Church because this consent is never able to be lacking to him. Indeed, since we believe that the Pope is infallible through the divine assistance, by that very fact we also believe that the assent of the Church will not be lacking to his definitions since it is not able to happen that the body of bishops be separated from its head, and since the Church universal is not able to fail. For it is impossible that general obscurity be spread in respect to the more important truths which touch upon religion, as the Synod of Pistoia held.
 3. Note well. It is asked in what sense the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff is “absolute.” I reply and openly admit: in no sense is pontifical infallibility absolute, because absolute infallibility belongs to God alone, who is the first and essential truth and who is never able to deceive or be deceived. All other infallibility, as communicated for a specific purpose, has its limits and its conditions under which it is considered to be present. The same is valid in reference to the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. For this infallibility is bound by certain limits and conditions. What those conditions may be should be deduced not “a priori” but from the very promise or manifestation of the will of Christ. Now what follows from the promise of Christ, made to Peter and his successors, as far as these conditions are concerned? He promised Peter the gift of inerrancy in Peter’s relation to the Universal Church: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ...” (Mt. 16:18). “Feed my lambs, feed my sheep” (Jn. 21:13-17). Peter, placed outside this relation to the universal Church, does not enjoy in his successors this charism of truth which comes from that certain promise of Christ. Therefore, in reality, the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff is restricted by reason “of the subject,” that is when the Pope, constituted in the chair of Peter, the center of the Church, speaks as universal teacher and supreme judge: it is restricted by reason of the “object,” i.e., when treating of matters of faith and morals; and by reason of the “act” itself, i.e., when the Pope defines what must be believed or rejected by all the faithful. Nevertheless, some of the most reverend fathers, not content with these conditions, go farther and even want to put into this constitution conditions which are found in different ways in different theological treatises and which concern the good faith and diligence of the Pontiff in searching out and enunciating the truth. However, these things, since they concern the conscience of the Pontiff rather than his relation [to the Church], must be considered as touching on the moral order rather than the dogmatic order. For with great care our Lord Jesus Christ willed that the charism of truth depend not on the conscience of the Pontiff, which is private – even most private – to each person, and known to God alone, but rather on the public relation of the Pontiff to the universal Church. If it were otherwise, this gift of infallibility would not be an effective means for preserving and repairing the unity of the Church. But in no way, therefore, should it be feared that the universal Church could be led into error about faith through the bad faith and negligence of the Pontiff. For the protection of Christ and the divine assistance promised to the successors of Peter is a cause so efficacious that the judgment of the supreme Pontiff would be impeded if it were to be erroneous and destructive of the Church; or, if in fact the Pontiff really arrives at a definition, it will truly stand infallibly.

Offline Ladislaus

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Beatification and Canonization Since Vatican II: 3-Part Study
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2014, 07:54:13 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson
I can see your stupidity (and the stupidity of LOTI) are becomming occassions of sin to me


Try to make a serious actual argument, would you?  You can no doubt explain why my argument is "stupid" then.

How is it stupid to argue that you reduce infallibility to a meaningless tautology?  Explain how your definition not infallibility does not do this.