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Author Topic: Baptism of desire is totally undeniable  (Read 2517 times)

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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Re: Baptism of desire is totally undeniable
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2022, 07:51:50 AM »
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  • This is why I hate the Divine Mercy "devotion". It presumes on God's Will and belittles His Mercy by making people think eternal Damnation is never a merciful act. Let alone ignoring His justice.
    The Divine Mercy devotion is in my opinion one of the worst things to happen to the Church. So many Novus Ordites are enticed by this devotion into complete relativism. It is replacing the rosary and already replaced the Sacred Heart rosary.

    BTW, I just googled the Sacred Heart rosary and I can't believe it's different in English. Where I'm from we repeat "Jesus meek and humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Yours" on the small beads not the large ones. On the large ones we pray: "Eternal father, I offer you the most precious blood of Jesus Christ, in reparation for our sins, as help to the saintly souls in Purgatory and for the needs of the Holy Church.

    Which version do you pray?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of desire is totally undeniable
    « Reply #31 on: September 07, 2022, 08:24:00 AM »
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  • The Divine Mercy devotion is in my opinion one of the worst things to happen to the Church. So many Novus Ordites are enticed by this devotion into complete relativism. It is replacing the rosary and already replaced the Sacred Heart rosary.

    BTW, I just googled the Sacred Heart rosary and I can't believe it's different in English. Where I'm from we repeat "Jesus meek and humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Yours" on the small beads not the large ones. On the large ones we pray: "Eternal father, I offer you the most precious blood of Jesus Christ, in reparation for our sins, as help to the saintly souls in Purgatory and for the needs of the Holy Church.

    Which version do you pray?

    Even more, the Divine Mercy devotion is replacing Confession and a desire to truly repent of one's sins.  It's a "confidence" that borders on presumption.

    This to me is the biggest clue about why Divine Mercy is not from God.  When God introduces a new devotion, it's invariably to correct or offset some harmful spiritual trend.  So, Our Lord introduce devotion to His Sacred Heart when Jansenism was raging and people were losing confidence in His Mercy.  These days, there's no shortage of people who "trust" in God's "Mercy" ... so much so that pretty much everyone who's not a serial killer is going to Heaven.  So this Divine Mercy devotion tends to REINFORCE this trend towards presumption that's dominant today.  God does not do that.  He would intervene to re-emphasize God's Justice at a time when no one takes it seriously anymore.

    And then the Sacred Heart devotion is a perfect expression of Our Lord's Mercy already, and it's being displaced by Divine Mercy.  DM also has this new agey feel to it, with these colored beams of light coming from Our Lord, whereas the Sacred Heart is a much more tangible and concrete expression of the same ... a more human expression vs. an abstract one.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Baptism of desire is totally undeniable
    « Reply #32 on: September 07, 2022, 09:07:48 AM »
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  • The Divine Mercy devotion is in my opinion one of the worst things to happen to the Church. So many Novus Ordites are enticed by this devotion into complete relativism. It is replacing the rosary and already replaced the Sacred Heart rosary.

    BTW, I just googled the Sacred Heart rosary and I can't believe it's different in English. Where I'm from we repeat "Jesus meek and humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Yours" on the small beads not the large ones. On the large ones we pray: "Eternal father, I offer you the most precious blood of Jesus Christ, in reparation for our sins, as help to the saintly souls in Purgatory and for the needs of the Holy Church.

    Which version do you pray?
    I've used Fr. Croiset's version, but there's an alternative one in the Manual of the Sacred Heart from Refuge of Sinners books. Both attached below.

    I even bought a while back this pretty, but large and awkward, chaplet for the devotion that now just kind of sits on my bookshelf in its bag.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Baptism of desire is totally undeniable
    « Reply #33 on: September 07, 2022, 09:17:21 AM »
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  • And there's also one to be found in the Raccolta #67: http://www.liturgialatina.org/raccolta/heart.htm

    I was going to copy/paste it, but my phone is deciding only to copy what it wants to :facepalm:
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Baptism of desire is totally undeniable
    « Reply #34 on: September 07, 2022, 09:26:15 AM »
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  • I've used Fr. Croiset's version, but there's an alternative one in the Manual of the Sacred Heart from Refuge of Sinners books. Both attached below.
    Interesting. I wonder how these many versions came about.

    I even bought a while back this pretty, but large and awkward, chaplet for the devotion that now just kind of sits on my bookshelf in its bag.
    It is very nice. I pray the Sacred Heart rosary every day but we do it on a normal Rosary, not a chaplet with 33 beads.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Baptism of desire is totally undeniable
    « Reply #35 on: September 07, 2022, 09:39:54 AM »
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  • It is very nice. I pray the Sacred Heart rosary every day but we do it on a normal Rosary, not a chaplet with 33 beads.
    Very good, it is a nice devotion. I used to try to do it, for a time. But it got put aside when I decided to strip away a lot of devotions I was trying to do and simplify my prayer life. Now it's just 15 decades of the Rosary, the Hours from the Monastic Diurnal, and morning and evening prayers (with ejaculatory prayers throughout the day).
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: Baptism of desire is totally untenable
    « Reply #36 on: September 07, 2022, 06:33:16 PM »
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  • Fixed the title of this thread.

    A good sermon on this topic by Fr. Wathen: 



    If you don't like YT, check this video out on Odysee


    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: Baptism of desire is totally untenable
    « Reply #37 on: September 07, 2022, 07:06:29 PM »
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  • It's terrible if you're looking at it through the lens of natural justice, but will always be the most just and merciful outcome on the part of God. We are not permitted to sit here and speculate on why God let person A die young while person B lives a worse life to old age. We are to accept it as the Divine Will and the best possible outcome of that causal chain.

    Part of what influences our view of natural justice is the erroneous opinion of Rousseau that man is born naturally good. This incredibly common moralistic fallacy (otherwise known as the is-ought) has been condemned by the Church, and I dare to say is condemned by our common sense. 

    Especially in these godless times, it is evident to see that man left to his own devices is very prone to become wicked and corrupt. What Rousseau did was try to blame "society" for this tendency, which we know is really the result of Original Sin, instead of the very nature of fallen man. 

    Though as other users have pointed out (especially the eminent Ladislaus, whom I have sparred with much on other subjects), certain saints and theologians before Rousseau have fallen into this theological kind of the moralistic fallacy out of sentimentality. 

     A little more about the moralistic fallacy

    Quote
    The moralistic fallacy is the informal fallacy of assuming that an aspect of nature which has socially unpleasant consequences cannot exist. Its typical form is "if X were true, then it would happen that Z!", where Z is a morally, socially or politically undesirable thing. What should be moral is assumed a priori to also be naturally occurring.

    Evidently in this case we are talking about an aspect of the supernatural that has socially unpleasant consequences, but the logic still follows. Though this fallacy was coined by the infidel David Hume, I think that this fallacy stands to reason as a legitimate kind of fallacy.




    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Baptism of desire is totally undeniable
    « Reply #38 on: September 07, 2022, 09:19:04 PM »
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  • Yes, this is one line in the pro-BoD narrative that I heard for about 6 months straight, until we destroyed it thoroughly, and I haven't heard this in several years now, that those against BoD are trying to limit the omnipotence of God.  Ironically, however, they hold that God can be constrained (or forced) by impossibility to offer BoD.

    But it is God who constrained us.  This is like saying we're "constraining" God by saying that God cannot lie.  HE is the one who set up this economy of salvation, and were are simply trying to understand what He has set in place.

    It's also similar to the next claim, that we are "judging" souls.  Nonsense.  That's like saying we're judging souls when we say, "Those who die in mortal sin go to hell forever."  That's simply articulating the STANDARDS of God's judgment, which He has revealed to us.  This was Myrna's primary line of attack (God rest her soul).  But she couldn't understand how discussing God's standards of judgment were not actually us applying them to any given individual with any kind of absolute certainty.  "If someone dies in a state of mortal sin, they're damned."  Is this "judgmental" or just repeating God's truth that He revealed to us about the standard for judgment?  God had the Mercy and the Justice to reveal to us by what standards we'll be judged.  Similarly, "If someone dies without the Sacrament of Baptism, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven."  That's about as "judgmental" as the mortal sin one previously.  But it simply could NOT sink in with her.

    There are just so many lame lines of argument that it makes my head want to explode, as illogical nonsense like this truly irritates my intellect.

    Some Catholics act like people are entitled to more time and more opportunity. So those who are not baptized, some of them still might be saved because God is so merciful? What about the 7 year old kid that sinned mortally one time, died and went to hell?  Certainly God should've waited until his father got home and took him to confession. Maybe God should have let him die a day later, or on that following Sunday, when the kid was nice and ready.  Maybe we should believe there's hope for salvation for all, else we're limiting God? Glad you put that garbage to rest on this forum. What seems wise to man, is foolishness to God; He doesn't owe anyone anything.  He loves us, but has preordained whom He will save and whom He won't. That is, some are given multiple chances, others not so much. Maintaining the sacrament of Baptism is the determinant. Not BOD guessing games.