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Offline DeMaistre

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Baptism of Desire
« on: June 06, 2009, 09:37:51 AM »
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  • Who believes in "Baptism of Desire" (and why)? (I do not)

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 09:50:22 AM »
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  • From an other post by me:

    It is impossible to be saved outside the Church, because the Church
    is the rule or measure of faith, without which faith it is impossible to
    attain heaven.  Natural good will is not enough to be saved.  Anyone who dies
    with natural good will alone cannot be saved.

          However, if God gives the grace to embrace the True Faith, and one
    accepts -- that is, baptism of desire -- he is truly a member of the Church
    by means of his desire of being united to the Church by sacramental Baptism,
    were it in his power.  He can thereby be saved inside the Church, even though
    he cannot receive Sacramental baptism of water.

          In Catholic moral theology, Baptism is necessary for salvation by
    necessity of means.  When a thing is necessary for the attainment of an end
    because it contains in itself something requisite for this purpose, we say
    that it is necessary by necessity of means.  In such an event, if a person
    does not employ the means, even though it involves no fault on his part, per
    se he cannot attain the end.

          When we say that per se it is impossible to attain an end without
    something that is necessary by necessity of means, we imply that by God's
    ordinance another means may supply in certain cases.  Thus, baptism of desire
    and baptism of blood can supply the chief effects of the baptism of water in
    certain cases.  In such an event, we say that the means in question is
    necessary by relative necessity of means, as distinct from the case when
    nothing will supply for the means (absolute necessity).  A person is not
    necessarily "outside" the Catholic Church merely because he is not an actual
    member.  But, in order to be saved, one must be united to the Catholic Church
    at least by desire, either explicit or implicit.  Through such a desire one
    whose lack of actual membership in the Church is not due to any fault on his
    own part can be "inside" the Church, and, if he joins to his desire an act of
    faith and an act of divine charity, can be saved."  (Francis J. Connell,
    1958, 1964).

          For the Fathers, St. Alphonsus Liguori (1696-1787) sums up the
    Catholic understanding of this doctrine "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" by
    saying (De Baptismo, cap. 1):  "It is de fide [of the faith and required to
    be believed by all Catholics] that there are some men saved also by the
    baptism of the Spirit [i.e., of desire, by the grace of the Holy Spirit]. In
    this he expresses the teaching of all the Fathers, Doctors, popes, and
    theologians, including St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St.
    Fulgentius, St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologiae, IIIa, Q. 68, A.2), St.
    Peter Canisius, St. Alphonsus de Liguori, Pope Innocent II, Pope Innocent
    III, and Pope St. Pius X.      Specifically, the Council of Trent dogmatically recognized the
    doctrine of Baptism of Desire when it defined:

    Translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adae, in statum
    gratiae ... post evangelium promulgatum sine lavacro regenerationis AUT EIUS
    VOTO fieri not potest.  [The translation from that state in which man is born
    a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace  ... cannot, since the
    promulgation of the gospel, be effected except through the laver of
    regeneration OR ITS DESIRE.]  (Sessio Sexta de Iustificatione, Caput IV:  
    Insinuatur Descriptio Iustificationis Impii, et Modus Eius in Statu Gratiae)

      St. Alphonsus Liguori in Book 6 of his Theologia Moralis, quotes this
    passage and comments: "Therefore, it is de fide [dogmatic] that men are also
    saved by Baptism of desire."  This dogma was confirmed by the Council of
    Trent in the following Canon:Si quis dixerit, sacramenta novae legis non esse ad salutem necessaria, sed
    superflua, et sine eis AUT EORUM VOTO per solam fidem homines a Deo gratiam
    iustificationis adispisci, licet omnia singulis necessaria not sint:  
    anathema sit.  [If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not
    necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and taht without them OR
    WITHOUT THE DESIRE OF THEM men obtain from HGod through faith alone the grace
    of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be
    anathema.]  (Session Septima, Canones de Sacramentis in Genere, N. 4)

          Moreover, here are some pertinent statements from the traditional
    popes of the 19th and early 20th centuries concerning invincible ignorance of
    the True Faith, that is, ignorance outside the moral responsibility of the
    individual.  Traditional theologians that expound this same teaching (before
    Vatican II) include Abarzuza, Aertnys, Billot, Cappello, Coronata, Davis,
    Herrmann, Herve, Hurter, Iorio, Lennerz, McAuliffe, Merkelbach, Noldin, Ott,
    Pohl, Prummer, Regatillo, Sabetti, Sola, Tanquerey, Zalba, and Zubizarreta.


    Venerable Pope Pius IX
    Singulari quadam
    Allocution against the Errors of Rationalism and Indifferentism
    December 9, 1854

          It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the
    apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark
    of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood.  
    On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are
    affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance,
    are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord.  
    Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of
    such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of
    peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors?  Only when we have
    been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as He is (1 John
    3:2) shall we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins divine
    mercy with divine justice.  But as long as we dwell on earth, encumbered with
    this soul-dulling, mortal body, let us tenaciously cling to the Catholic
    doctrine that there is one God, one faith, one baptism (Eph. 4:5).


    Venerable Pope Pius IX
    Quanto conficiamur moerore
    August 10, 1863

          And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brethren, it is necessary once
    more to mention and censure the serious error into which some Catholics have
    unfortunately fallen.  For they are of the opinion that men who live in
    errors, estranged from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain
    eternal life.  This is in direct opposition to Catholic teaching.

          We all know that those who are afflicted with invincible ignorance
    with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the
    natural law that have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they
    are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can
    attain eternal life by the power of divine light and grace.  For God, Who
    reads comprehensively in every detail the minds and souls, the thoughts and
    habits of all men, will not permit, in accordance with His infinite goodness
    and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal
    torments (suppliciis).

          However, also well-known is the Catholic dogma that no one can be
    saved outside the Catholic Church, and that those who obstinately oppose the
    authority and definitions of the church, and who stubbornly remain separated
    form the unity of the Church and from the successor of Peter, the Roman
    Pontiff (to whom the Savior has entrusted the care of His vineyard), cannot
    attain salvation.


    Pope St. Pius X
    Catechism of Christian Doctrine, para. 132

        A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without
    perfect contrition, will not be saved.  But he who finds himself outside
    without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love
    called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the
    Church, that is, to the soul of the Church.


    Pope Pius XII
    Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis
    June 29, 1943

          From a heart overflowing with love, we ask each and every one of them
    [non-Catholics] to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek
    to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.  
    For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain
    relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain
    deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can be enjoyed only in
    the Catholic Church.  (Para. 103)

         
          What practical conclusions do we draw from this doctrine?  Fr. E.
    Hugueney, O.P., in a 1933 article, "La opinion traditionnelle sur la nombre
    des Elus" [The Traditional Opinion on the Number of the Elect], in La Revue
    Thomiste [The Thomistic Review] wrote on the practical danger of remaining
    outside the Church in this way:

        "Of those who are members of the Church, the elect will greatly
    outnumber the damned; and if we include as members of the Church all those
    who are hers in spirit by baptism of desire, this immense number of elect
    will be very great indeed.  Yet, we must not forget that, outside the Church,
    the chances of salvation are much less; this means that many pagans will
    probably lose their souls, because they are almost defenseless against the
    devils and their own passions."

        To Fr. Hugueney's statement, I would add that it is a very difficult
    thing to elicit perfect contrition in oneself.  With the graces of the
    Sacrament of Penance, Catholics may receive absolution with only imperfect
    contrition.  With the great assistance that Holy Mother Church offers to her
    practicing Catholic children, salvation is made so much easier for them than
    for those who must struggle outside her, even if they can in truth rely on a
    conscience that is truly and totally in invincible ignorance.  

    http://en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/Salvation-5.htm



    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #2 on: June 06, 2009, 09:52:33 AM »
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  • It is here:
    http://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?a=topic&t=7189

    My question is: if believeing in BOD is a heresy and against EENS, then why the church canonized people who believed in it?

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #3 on: June 06, 2009, 10:13:41 AM »
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  • I just wanted to say that believeing in BOD will not send us to hell, will it?

    And what do you say about those converts in my country who were killed/died before getting baptized?
    And why fr. Feeneyite was condemned?
    And eastern orthodoxs too believe in BOD. It must be more ancient than eastern schism. While feeeneyites reject it as modernism!

    Offline roscoe

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 01:04:48 PM »
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  • What is to explain? Read C G Clark, Gary Potter and then visit MHFM website and the pieces will fall into place. Also the Point archives are avail on line.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Caminus

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #5 on: June 06, 2009, 01:17:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: DeMaistre
    Who believes in "Baptism of Desire" (and why)? (I do not)


    You don't hold the doctrine of the Church or rather the liberal abuse of the same?

    Offline Caminus

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #6 on: June 06, 2009, 01:55:18 PM »
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  • On the contrary, please show me where it is rejected.  And taken singly, yes, they are fallible, but taken in concert, along with the acts of the magisterium, we are faced with a very certain doctrine.  You can't pretend that it doesn't exist.  You simply have to correctly understand it.  You also have to understand that it is a controverted question as to whether implicit versus explicit faith suffices as fulfilling a condition for salvation.  You are not allowed to make a controverted opinion into dogma, nor censure its opposite as heretical.  By all means attack liberalism and modernism which distort this teaching, along with others, but don't simply reject the doctrine itself as it is an implicit concession to their error and is very temerious on your part.  

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #7 on: June 06, 2009, 10:18:19 PM »
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  • I know that Saints are fallible. But they are in heaven. and they couldnot reach there if they were heretics. So they were not heretics. They believed in BOD.

    Two logical conclusions:

    A saint is in heaven.
    A heretic cannot be in heaven.
    So a saint is not a heretic.


    A saint believed in BOD.
    A saint is not a heretic.
    So a believer in BOD is not a heretic.


    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #8 on: June 06, 2009, 10:28:31 PM »
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  • I just hope in salvation.
    BOD will work only at the moment of death.( will work for the lack of sacrament of baptism) sentece correct?

    Offline roscoe

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #9 on: June 06, 2009, 10:54:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: DeMaistre
    Quote from: roscoe
    Fr Feeney was not condemmed. He has made a remark rolling his eyes a BoD however I do not believe he ever stated that there is no such thing. MHFM is NEO- Feeneyite and have taken his ideas to far.


    Please explain.
    Sorry- I misunderstood your question. I am not a theologian and as such not all that familiar with their doctrinal heresies but it seems the BoD thing is one. I think Fr Feeney.s attitude would be that one SHOULD BY NO MEANS  COUNT ON BoD.

      As a historian, the problem I have with MHFM( and I know this has been brought up repeatedly but I have been asked) is that they participate with Hoffman's friend C Hiembichner, J Vennari, 'Terminiello', Piers Compton, I believe Mrs Martinez and others in spreading the malicious pack of lies that the great Cardinal Rampolla( Sec of State to Pope Leo XIII) was somehow a 'secret occult mason in the OTO' as a henchman of no less than the admitted evilist man in history-- Alaistair Crowley( the Beast 666).

     As Card Rampolla was very close to Popes Leo XIII, Pius X, and Card Merry Del Val, this is nothing but an attack on their characters as well as Rampolla. The allegation is a complete joke and I hope no one is dumb enough to believe it

    At one time I placed a call to MHFM and spoke to one of the Bros and he became most agitated when I attempted to give him another opinion on the suject. I hope this explanation helps.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #10 on: June 06, 2009, 10:56:37 PM »
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  • I had not read the response of soJ b4 my post. My answer to the above is I do not know?
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline roscoe

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #11 on: June 06, 2009, 11:11:44 PM »
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  • I just said that they became most agitated.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #12 on: June 07, 2009, 06:23:16 AM »
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  • Sorry. I didn't understand. you are for it or against it?

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #13 on: June 07, 2009, 10:58:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
    Sorry. I didn't understand. you are for it or against it?


    The Feeneyite position seems quite indefensible.

    http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/fr_feeney_catholic_doctrine.htm

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #14 on: June 07, 2009, 11:18:44 AM »
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  • Thanks alot!

     

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