Author Topic: Baptism by Desire is Valid (Read 1878 times)

CM · « **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2009, 04:04:06 AM »

Quote from: kamalayka

I even found some quotes from Saints

Great. I even found some dogmatic decrees, promulgated infallibly by the Roman Pontiffs.

Look, here's one now:

Quote from: Council of Florence

Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the kingdom of heaven. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water, either hot or cold. The form is: I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit.

The above is a dogmatic definition of a matter of faith contained in the deposit of faith handed down by the Apostles, uttered by Pope Eugene IV in virtue of his apostolic authority with the intent to bind all Christians to belief (infallible definition, meaning it's completely true in all its parts).

So I guess if you believe that one of your sincere repentant people will be visited by a minister sent by God who will baptize them according to the rite above, then you are not heretical!!

If you believe that it is without matter form or intention, however, you are merely repeating a heresy.

Quote from: kamayalka

I don't see myself as being wrong because I am simply atating what the Church teaches.

Huh? Inventing new words?

Jehanne · « **Reply #2 on:** October 18, 2009, 08:13:54 AM »

Quote from: kamalayka

Hello everyone!

I noticed that on this forum there is some bitterness toward Vatican II. I know that some on this forum would argue against what is called "baptism by desire," which is the explicit or at least implicit desire for baptism..

This issue has been discussed ad nauseam here recently. Look closely at your quotes from the Fathers, Popes, and traditional theologians of the Church, and you will see that they apply Baptism of Desire to catechumens only, that is, to individuals who have made an explicit faith commitment to Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, Vatican II applied BoD to everyone and anyone.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #3 on:** October 18, 2009, 11:20:05 AM »

Quote from: kamalayka

I noticed that on this forum there is some bitterness toward Vatican II.

Not exactly a smooth way to begin, nor is it accurate. V2 and the post-V2 era has been an unmitigated disaster, and to oppose it, even vehemently, does not necessarily involve bitterness.

Jehanne · « **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2009, 12:02:22 PM »

I am not bitter. What is there to be bitter about?