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Author Topic: Baptism by Desire is Valid  (Read 1239 times)

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Offline kamalayka

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Baptism by Desire is Valid
« on: October 17, 2009, 10:11:43 PM »
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    Offline CM

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 04:04:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: kamalayka
    I even found some quotes from Saints


    Great.  I even found some dogmatic decrees, promulgated infallibly by the Roman Pontiffs.

    Look, here's one now:

    Quote from: Council of Florence
    Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the kingdom of heaven. The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water, either hot or cold. The form is: I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit.


    The above is a dogmatic definition of a matter of faith contained in the deposit of faith handed down by the Apostles, uttered by Pope Eugene IV in virtue of his apostolic authority with the intent to bind all Christians to belief (infallible definition, meaning it's completely true in all its parts).

    So I guess if you believe that one of your sincere repentant people will be visited by a minister sent by God who will baptize them according to the rite above, then you are not heretical!!

    If you believe that it is without matter form or intention, however, you are merely repeating a heresy.

    Quote from: kamayalka
    I don't see myself as being wrong because I am simply atating what the Church teaches.


    Huh?  Inventing new words?
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    Offline Jehanne

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #2 on: October 18, 2009, 08:13:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: kamalayka
    Hello everyone!  


    I noticed that on this forum there is some bitterness toward Vatican II. I know that some on this forum would argue against what is called "baptism by desire," which is the explicit or at least implicit desire for baptism..


    This issue has been discussed ad nauseam here recently.  Look closely at your quotes from the Fathers, Popes, and traditional theologians of the Church, and you will see that they apply Baptism of Desire to catechumens only, that is, to individuals who have made an explicit faith commitment to Jesus Christ.

    On the other hand, Vatican II applied BoD to everyone and anyone.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #3 on: October 18, 2009, 11:20:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: kamalayka
    I noticed that on this forum there is some bitterness toward Vatican II.


    Not exactly a smooth way to begin, nor is it accurate.  V2 and the post-V2 era has been an unmitigated disaster, and to oppose it, even vehemently, does not necessarily involve bitterness.
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Jehanne

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #4 on: October 18, 2009, 12:02:22 PM »
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    • I am not bitter.  What is there to be bitter about?
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    Offline CM

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 07:51:23 PM »
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    • If one is bitter towards satan, then one is bitter towards Vatican II.

    But what exactly does one mean by bitter?
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    Offline kamalayka

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #6 on: October 18, 2009, 08:07:06 PM »
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    • Even if Vatican II was heretical, we should still follow it.

    God will hold the people responsible accountable, not the people who faithfully follow the Church.

    (IF it is, then why did God not prevent it from happening?
    Vatican II is 100% legitimate in my view).

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    Offline SJB

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 08:31:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: kamalayka
    Even if Vatican II was heretical, we should still follow it.


    If anything is heretical, you shouldn't follow it. Why would you think otherwise?

    Quote
    God will hold the people responsible accountable, not the people who faithfully follow the Church.


    God will hold all persons accountable for their actions. What do you mean when you say "faithfully follow"? Follow what? It seems to me that most modern Catholics are really following anything other that their own feelings.

    Quote
    IF it is, then why did God not prevent it from happening?


    Because God allows all things, good and bad. Can you think of some other examples of what God has allowed that wasn't an immediate good? Why did God allow the Reformation? Why did He allow the Western Schism?

    Quote
    Vatican II is 100% legitimate in my view.


    Even if it was heretical, right?
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    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline CM

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 09:23:50 PM »
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    • Kamayalka whence art thou come?
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    Offline Jehanne

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 09:34:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: kamalayka
    Even if Vatican II was heretical, we should still follow it.


    If anything is heretical, you shouldn't follow it. Why would you think otherwise?

    Quote
    God will hold the people responsible accountable, not the people who faithfully follow the Church.


    God will hold all persons accountable for their actions. What do you mean when you say "faithfully follow"? Follow what? It seems to me that most modern Catholics are really following anything other that their own feelings.

    Quote
    IF it is, then why did God not prevent it from happening?


    Because God allows all things, good and bad. Can you think of some other examples of what God has allowed that wasn't an immediate good? Why did God allow the Reformation? Why did He allow the Western Schism?

    Quote
    Vatican II is 100% legitimate in my view.


    Even if it was heretical, right?


    Hi SJB,

    We agree (finally, except on skirts and long hair, but I am sure that we both agree that you look nicer in skirts than in pants)!
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    Offline kamalayka

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 12:19:33 PM »
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    • When I said heretical, I meant if it seems heretical.

    I trust the Church, even more tan my fallen, fallible human reasoning.
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    Offline SJB

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 12:30:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: kamalayka
    When I said heretical, I meant if it seems heretical.


    Of course. Has any of this been corrected in the past 50 years? When something appears heretical, it needs to be addressed.

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    I trust the Church, even more than my fallen, fallible human reasoning.


    I can appreciate that. However, this does not mean that you suspend all use of your reason. You must flee heresy when you see it.
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    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Jehanne

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 01:18:39 PM »
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    • SJB:  Of course. Has any of this been corrected in the past 50 years? When something appears heretical, it needs to be addressed.

    Well, past 60 years, but who's counting!  :reading:

    SJB:  I can appreciate that. However, this does not mean that you suspend all use of your reason. You must flee heresy when you see it.

    Amen, amen, amen!!   :rahrah:
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    Offline kamalayka

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #13 on: October 20, 2009, 12:31:43 AM »
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    • Gee, I never thought I would find myself defending the Papacy on a Catholic forum...




    IF you do not think Pope Benedict XVI is a true Pope, then where is the true pope?
    Where is the true Church?


    How can God expect us to know where the true Church is if it is in hiding???

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    Offline Jehanne

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    Baptism by Desire is Valid
    « Reply #14 on: October 20, 2009, 07:27:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: kamalayka
    Gee, I never thought I would find myself defending the Papacy on a Catholic forum...




    IF you do not think Pope Benedict XVI is a true Pope, then where is the true pope?
    Where is the true Church?


    How can God expect us to know where the true Church is if it is in hiding???



    Wrong thread.
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