Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Claim - "SSPX are in schism, confessions invalid"  (Read 3543 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46816
  • Reputation: +27685/-5139
  • Gender: Male
Re: Claim - "SSPX are in schism, confessions invalid"
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2023, 03:35:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    If absolution didn't happen, then the sacrament is invalid. Your distinction between the validity of the sacrament and the validity of the absolution is vain. 

    Right.  I'm not sure what that distinction was about.  While jurisdiction is neither the matter nor the form of the Sacrament, the Sacrament can only be APPLIED to a particular individual through the power of the keys, and perhaps that's what he's getting act.

    Recall that with all the Sacraments, proper matter and form alone do not suffice for validity.  It also requires someone with the power to confect the Sacrament.  So, for instance, a layman might put on vestments, offer a Tridentine Mass and say the words of consecration over a proper host.  But a he wouldn't have the power to confect the Sacrament, so it would be invalid.  With Confession, not only do you need a valid priest, but also for him to be a valid minister of the Sacrament, he requires empowerment through the power of the keys.  So it's an extra stipulation with regard to the minister of the Sacrament.  For Baptism, any human being can confer the Sacrament.  Others require a priest.  Others might required a bishop (Holy Orders).  Others require a priest with empowered by the Church with the necessary authority.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm
    Quote
    The granting by Christ of the power to forgive sins is the first essential of the Sacrament of Penance; in the actual exercise of this power are included the other essentials. The sacrament as such and on its own account has a matter and a form and it produces certain effects; the power of the keys is exercised by a minister (confessor) who must possess the proper qualifications, and the effects are wrought in the soul of the recipient, i.e., the penitent who with the necessary dispositions must perform certain actions (confession, satisfaction).



    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46816
    • Reputation: +27685/-5139
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Claim - "SSPX are in schism, confessions invalid"
    « Reply #46 on: February 04, 2023, 03:48:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I agree, you're right, but it is a matter of legalities as 2V said since if it were not for that law, any priest could absolve any penitent wherever they are. I'm pretty sure the only place that law is null is on a ship while out to sea.

    I think it's the other way around, in terms of emphasis.  It's not the law that PREVENTS a priest from absolving, but the intention of the Pope, and then the bishop, to share the power of the keys with the priest.  Nor does there have to be any law.  At any time, a legitimate Pope could just say, "I grant any Catholic priest jurisdiction/authority to hear Confessions no matter where they're at and whether or not they have faculties to hear Confession." and they would at that moment have the authority.  In fact, when a St. Pius X gave permission for Catholics living in Orthodox territories to receive the Sacrament of Confession (and Communion) from Orthodox priests, he was in fact implicitly empowering those Orthodox priests with the necessary jurisdiction.  But, again, Canon Law always envisions "normal" times and scenarios, and so it's important to understand the intent of the law, which is to preserve order in the Church and prevent vagus priests running around creating chaos.  When in some kind of necessity, the intent of this law is not violated if some priest were to hear a Confession, even short of "danger of death" scenarios.  Let's say a priest was visiting some African country with very few Catholic Churches, or Saudi Arabia, where Catholicism is outlawed, and a Catholic comes up to him and asks to confess, even if the priest was not explicitly granted the jurisdiction, the Church would certainly supply the jurisdiction, even if this individual was not in danger of death, because this action does not violate the intent of the law, but actually corresponds with the Churches highest law, the salvation of souls.


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6471/-1194
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Claim - "SSPX are in schism, confessions invalid"
    « Reply #47 on: February 04, 2023, 04:20:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    The Baltimore Catechism defines the sacrament as the telling of one's sin not to any priest, but specifically to an "authorized" priest (Q. 408). The Roman Catechism's entry on confession repeats Trent's injunction that only a priest with ordinary or delegated jurisdiction can absolve validly. These are not obscure works. These are not controversial works. These are neither academic nor scholarly works.  These are the foundational instructional materials for laity of the Catholic Church in the west, and of the Catholic Church in America, for hundreds of years.  I really thought I was operating from a perspective of common knowledge. It is quite possible I am wrong, and that my expectations were unreasonable. But then I ask myself: if Catholics cannot be expected to have the knowledge contained in those materials, what knowledge can they be expected to have?  I don't have an answer to that question.  At any rate, if my tenor was unjust for that I am sorry.
    .
    Thank you Mith.  Regardless of your tenor, I am grateful for the conversation.  I really learned something new today.  And I suspect a number of other people reading this did too (even though you think it's basic knowledge for Catholics).

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6471/-1194
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Claim - "SSPX are in schism, confessions invalid"
    « Reply #48 on: February 04, 2023, 04:23:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think it's the other way around, in terms of emphasis.  It's not the law that PREVENTS a priest from absolving, but the intention of the Pope, and then the bishop, to share the power of the keys with the priest.  Nor does there have to be any law.  At any time, a legitimate Pope could just say, "I grant any Catholic priest jurisdiction/authority to hear Confessions no matter where they're at and whether or not they have faculties to hear Confession." and they would at that moment have the authority.  In fact, when a St. Pius X gave permission for Catholics living in Orthodox territories to receive the Sacrament of Confession (and Communion) from Orthodox priests, he was in fact implicitly empowering those Orthodox priests with the necessary jurisdiction.  But, again, Canon Law always envisions "normal" times and scenarios, and so it's important to understand the intent of the law, which is to preserve order in the Church and prevent vagus priests running around creating chaos.  When in some kind of necessity, the intent of this law is not violated if some priest were to hear a Confession, even short of "danger of death" scenarios.  Let's say a priest was visiting some African country with very few Catholic Churches, or Saudi Arabia, where Catholicism is outlawed, and a Catholic comes up to him and asks to confess, even if the priest was not explicitly granted the jurisdiction, the Church would certainly supply the jurisdiction, even if this individual was not in danger of death, because this action does not violate the intent of the law, but actually corresponds with the Churches highest law, the salvation of souls.
    And this is what many call our traditional priests...vagus.  I still always thought that that insult meant just that they were illegal, not that their absolutions were invalid.