Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 9

Author Topic: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!  (Read 9648 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline forlorn

Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2019, 05:01:38 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 19, 2019, 04:52:51 PM
You are focusing on the too-narrow issue of the new mass, as being only a change of rite.  The issue with new-catholics are the V2 ideals they hold either explicitly or implicitly, consciously or unconsciously, fully or partially.  These false ideals (i.e. the heresies of Modernism in V2...AND the heresies promoted in the 50 years since) they will gradually absorb from the V2 priests, who had V2 seminary training, and from the V2 philosophies of many other liberal/progressive "catholics" who write books, speak, etc and who are promoted by such priests, or at least condoned by their silence.  Those poor novus ordo/indult catholics "don't know what they don't know" and they are being corrupted SYSTEMATICALLY, in schools, in seminaries, in books, in speeches, in false-translations of encyclicals, etc.  All of this happens outside of the 1.5 hrs on sunday at mass.  So even if they go to a "conservative" priest who says a "conservative" novus ordo, their faith is being consistently, systematically and slowly attacked every day of the week by numerous wolves who hide in sheep's clothing.  The problem is much larger than the new rite.
What I had in mind of a Catholic who holds the full faith but attends NO would be one who grew up, was catechised before the V2 reforms and then just continued going to Mass without questioning it after V2 - because well, why would they assume the Church had suddenly flown off the rails? Such a person could be completely unaffected by V2 novelties. Furthermore, there are tons of conservative NOs who were born after V2 who reject ecuмenism and BOD, whereas even Trad founders and leaders such as +ABL embraced BOD. So to frame it as "Everyone in the NO must be at least a material heretic and all/most Trads are not" isn't really accurate. While on Cathinfo most people seem to reject BOD, the SSPX do and have always accepted it(and that's in the modern "other religions can be saved" form, not the old catechumen form) and they're probably the biggest chunk of Trads. 

Most of the heresies that modern "Catholics" embrace aren't even teachings of the Conciliar Church(although they can still be blamed for their spread).
Logged

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2019, 05:07:26 PM »
Quote
1: I get the reasoning behind staying home rather than attending a Novus Ordo, but would you also stay home rather than attending a Tridentine Mass at a place like the FSSP if those were your only options?  And if so why?  Why would doing that increase your chances of saving your soul?
If an indult mass were my only option, I wouldn't go.  Why?  Because those indult priests also say the new mass; and if they don't, they have to publically accept the novus ordo as being "just as good" (and so does everyone in attendance, even the laity, as +Benedict stated in his "motu").  The indult mass is a philosophical "pinch of incense" where you are making the smallest of concessions to the new-religion of V2, which represents Modernism, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and all that is anti-Council of Trent.  An indult mass is like a catholic eating a nice piece of apple pie, while their novus ordo neighbors are eating a moldy, rotten apple.  The indult catholic knows the new mass is moldy and rotten but they have promised to stay silent and in exchange, they can keep their nice apple pie.  Meanwhile, their catholic "friends" are getting sick from the moldy apple and are losing their faith and missing out on untold amounts of grace.  Where is the charity in this, watching your friends lose their faith?  Where is the Catholic fortitude in keeping silent about error?  Where is the Catholic spirit in a one who accepts evil to receive good?  Does the end now justify the means?  When did this become acceptable?
.
Admittedly, I take a hard-line stance that others may not.  However, I'd say that for those of you who don't like to be "extreme", if you decide to go to the indult mass, make that a short-term decision until you can find a True Traditional Mass.  I would not stay in a situation where the Indult is your only option.  You will eventually get sucked into the V2 vortex and your "traditional catholic" badge of honor will be forever tarnished.  


Quote
2: What if your only option was a Byzantine Rite liturgy that hasn't been changed with Vatican II, but is still in communion with what you'd call the Conciliar Church?  Would you stay home rather than attending and receiving the sacraments there?  If so, why, and why do you think that would increase your chances of saving your soul?
I don't know enough about Eastern liturgies to say.
Logged

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2019, 05:19:12 PM »
Quote
What I had in mind of a Catholic who holds the full faith but attends NO would be one who grew up, was catechised before the V2 reforms and then just continued going to Mass without questioning it after V2 - because well, why would they assume the Church had suddenly flown off the rails?
Firstly, that generation is mostly dead.  Secondly, i've talked to many in that generation and everyone knew that V2 was a change.  The new mass was such a stark, quick and violent rupture with the past that it shocked everyone.  No one could hide from the changes.  You either accepted them through "obedience" (knowing the changes weren't right), you accepted them because you were a liberal at heart who wanted an "easy" Church, or you walked away from the changes and became a Trad.


Quote
Such a person could be completely unaffected by V2 novelties.
The only people who didn't realize that V2 was different, were those who didn't know their faith beforehand.


Quote
Furthermore, there are tons of conservative NOs who were born after V2 who reject ecuмenism and BOD,
There are many more heresies of V2 than ecuмenism and BOD.  How about "religious liberty"?  How about no salvation outside of the Church (this is separate from BOD)?  Then there's the moral issues which have/will damn many others, even if they reject ecuмenism and BOD - NFP, false-annullments, gαy civil unions, voting for pro-choice candidates, condoning family members who apostasize and become pagan or protestant, accepting sex-ed in schools, accepting euthanasia, etc, etc.  All of these "social issues" are promoted by the local archdiocese.  Even if one attends an indult mass, you are exposed to these dangers to your faith, these temptations to sin, these temptations to compromise.  These dangers are not inconsequential.
Logged

Offline ByzCat3000

Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2019, 05:29:05 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 19, 2019, 05:19:12 PM
Firstly, that generation is mostly dead.  Secondly, i've talked to many in that generation and everyone knew that V2 was a change.  The new mass was such a stark, quick and violent rupture with the past that it shocked everyone.  No one could hide from the changes.  You either accepted them through "obedience" (knowing the changes weren't right), you accepted them because you were a liberal at heart who wanted an "easy" Church, or you walked away from the changes and became a Trad.

The only people who didn't realize that V2 was different, were those who didn't know their faith beforehand.

There are many more heresies of V2 than ecuмenism and BOD.  How about "religious liberty"?  How about no salvation outside of the Church (this is separate from BOD)?  Then there's the moral issues which have/will damn many others, even if they reject ecuмenism and BOD - NFP, false-annullments, gαy civil unions, voting for pro-choice candidates, condoning family members who apostasize and become pagan or protestant, accepting sex-ed in schools, accepting euthanasia, etc, etc.  All of these "social issues" are promoted by the local archdiocese.  Even if one attends an indult mass, you are exposed to these dangers to your faith, these temptations to sin, these temptations to compromise.  These dangers are not inconsequential.
First paragraph: I'm assuming he means the group who accepted the changes not because they were liberals at heart, but because of obedience.

Last paragraph:  What does "condoning family members who apostasize" mean exactly?

Do you believe Lefebvre rejected no salvation outside the Church?  Why or why not?
Logged

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2019, 05:48:04 PM »
Quote
First paragraph: I'm assuming he means the group who accepted the changes not because they were liberals at heart, but because of obedience.
Right, but he was minimizing the changes and arguing that those who lived during the 60s and 70s didn't think the changes were "that bad".  That's revisionist history.  Anyone who had an 8th grade understanding of the Faith knew that the new mass was more than just "different".  It was a revolutionary and shocking thing.  Those that quieted their consciences by claiming blind obedience knew that the changes were wrong.
Quote
What does "condoning family members who apostasize" mean exactly?
The false idea that a person who stops going to church or switches to protestantism is to be "accepted as they are" because "who are (their family members) to judge".  How many families today accept the errors of other family members by their silence or do so for human respect?  The same heretical mindset is promoted by V2 that any sincere person can be saved in any religion.
Quote
Do you believe Lefebvre rejected no salvation outside the Church?
Of course he didn't reject it.  But his understanding of BOD was not 100% orthodox, so his understanding of "no salvation" was faulty.  (By the way, this is why BOD was promoted to begin with by the Modernists in the 30s - to water down the "no salvation" doctrine, so they could usher in V2's new ecclesiology, to pave the way for their hoped-for, freemasonic 'one world religion').  The problem with BOD is that saints do mention it, but the Church has never defined it.  So having a faulty BOD belief is not the same as having a faulty faith due to the indult (in case that's where you were going with this).  Every V2 error has been soundly, clearly and absolutely rejected by a dogmatic statement in the past.  Not so with BOD - there's much misunderstanding and gray area.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 9
« previous next »