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Author Topic: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!  (Read 9636 times)

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Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2019, 02:54:29 PM »
Agree completely. I was honestly shocked and horrified when I first heard people declare that Catholics who attended Novus Ordo masses were damned schismatics. For the average person they had no reason to believe they should've ran for the hills after Vatican 2. It was, and still is, very possible to go to a Novus Ordo Mass every Sunday as a devout Catholic professing all the dogmas of the Faith, and not realise there's anything wrong with the rite at all. Sure these days we have access to constant streams of news on scandals in the Church and the latest crazy outbursts of Francis, so it's much harder to be ignorant of the Crisis today, but it was very possible for the first few decades of the Crisis and still possible for some today. 

And even if someone was aware of the Crisis but truly believed the Novus Ordo rite was valid and proper, and held the Catholic faith in whole, I don't think they're a heretic or a schismatic or the like. In error and needing correction? From our view, and we should endeavour to do that. But some heretic or schismatic damned to Hell, as the Dimonds and co. would tell us? Hardly.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2019, 03:20:52 PM »
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And even if someone was aware of the Crisis but truly believed the Novus Ordo rite was valid and proper, and held the Catholic faith in whole,
This is a contradiction.  What someone believes is different from the Truth.  A Novus Ordo catholic cannot have the "whole" faith, because the novus ordo is not wholly catholic.

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I don't think they're a heretic or a schismatic or the like. In error and needing correction? From our view, and we should endeavour to do that.
If someone is in error on the Faith, (and we're talking about substantial error), then by definition, they are either a material heretic or a schismatic, or some combination thereof.  And yes, I agree, it's our duty to teach them, if they will listen. 

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But some heretic or schismatic damned to Hell, as the Dimonds and co. would tell us? Hardly.
It's not our job to damn anyone to hell.  It's not even the CHURCH's job to do that.  And the Church has NEVER done so, on an individual basis.  But...the Church does teach that ignorance of the Truth or a holding to an error (even if the error is held "sincerely") will not suffice for salvation.  How this applies to Joe Doe is up to God.  But we can't water down Catholic Truths and we cannot say that someone who objectively holds error (even part error) has "the Faith".  This is lowering the bar for everyone.
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We must pray and work tirelessly to convert all those who are not 100% orthodox, even if they think they are.  Christ died on the Cross for all men, but only some will accept His grace.  For those that will, many are not yet part of His Church, or are only partly.  As He told us in Scripture: "And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring..." (John 10:16).  It's our job to bring these others to the fullness of the truth and that starts by recognizing their errors so we can instruct the ignorant.


Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2019, 03:48:02 PM »
This is a contradiction.  What someone believes is different from the Truth.  A Novus Ordo catholic cannot have the "whole" faith, because the novus ordo is not wholly catholic.
If someone is in error on the Faith, (and we're talking about substantial error), then by definition, they are either a material heretic or a schismatic, or some combination thereof.  And yes, I agree, it's our duty to teach them, if they will listen.
The validity of a particular rite is not a dogma of the Church.

It's not our job to damn anyone to hell.  It's not even the CHURCH's job to do that.  And the Church has NEVER done so, on an individual basis.  But...the Church does teach that ignorance of the Truth or a holding to an error (even if the error is held "sincerely") will not suffice for salvation.  How this applies to Joe Doe is up to God.  But we can't water down Catholic Truths and we cannot say that someone who objectively holds error (even part error) has "the Faith".  This is lowering the bar for everyone.
The Church also teaches that the Church cannot lead you into damnation. If you were to be damned for attending the Church's main rite of Mass, it'd be exactly that and the Gates of Hell would have prevailed.

Only way around that would be to declare that all the clergy are invalid and that the Church in Rome is not the Catholic Church at all. Which would still leave us with a problem of how the real Church being non-existent doesn't contradict the indefectibility of the Church.

We must pray and work tirelessly to convert all those who are not 100% orthodox, even if they think they are.  Christ died on the Cross for all men, but only some will accept His grace.  For those that will, many are not yet part of His Church, or are only partly.  As He told us in Scripture: "And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring..." (John 10:16).  It's our job to bring these others to the fullness of the truth and that starts by recognizing their errors so we can instruct the ignorant.
That's just not what the term orthodox means. It doesn't apply to the issue of rite at all.

Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 04:40:32 PM »
Well, let's pray that he receives the grace of conversion before death.

I'M KIDDING! :)

It's a good example of what I mean though.

I personally consider the FSSP to be overall a very compromised group. But the individuals in the group are obviously Catholic! They are very conservative Catholics, certainly in possession of the Catholic Faith.

About the FSSP:

Traditional Catholics, from the very beginning, have held 3 essential principles:
1. Leave the Conciliar Church and Novus Ordo behind completely, regardless of having a Trad option lined up for Mass. Stay home on Sunday if no Tridentine Mass available.
2. Seek out SURE sacraments in "lifeboats": valid priests to offer both the Tridentine Mass and traditional Sacraments, and support them wherever they are, even at independently set up "Traditional chapels" which Rome considers "illicit" or "un-canonical". Treat them for all practical purposes like one's local parish.
3. Believe "I don't need permission from the Pope, or Modernist Rome, to stay Catholic". That is, believe in supplied jurisdiction for Mass and ALL sacraments, and have NO scruples about attaching oneself to, and fully supporting, such Trad chapels and building them up.

Those elements are common to 100% of Traditional Catholics. Anyone who scruples about going to Confession to a Trad priest because he doesn't have official jurisdiction or faculties from the local Bishop, for example, is not a Trad. He might be conservative, but if he doesn't understand that Catholics have a right to keep their Faith, and a need for the Sacraments, they have a lot to learn and therefore are not yet "Traditional Catholic".

Enter the FSSP:
Since part of their essence is "approval/permission from Rome" they are technically not Trad, since such approval was not part of the Trad package from the beginning. But more importantly, it actually contradicts principle #3, above. From the beginning of the movement in the 1970's, getting permission from Rome was certainly NOT one of the elements of the Traditional movement. So the FSSP is a new kind of conservative Catholic at best ("Indult Catholic"? "Latin Mass Catholic"?).

While Sedevacantists ALSO added another element to the Traditional manifesto, "4. The putative pope is not pope at all.", this is different in two main ways:
1. A good number of Trads believed this from the beginning. It was there, just not universal. So they are a specific sub-type of Trad, rather than SOMETHING OTHER THAN Trad.
2. Their additional belief doesn't contradict Trad principles 1-3.
This raises a couple of questions from me."

1: I get the reasoning behind staying home rather than attending a Novus Ordo, but would you also stay home rather than attending a Tridentine Mass at a place like the FSSP if those were your only options?  And if so why?  Why would doing that increase your chances of saving your soul?

2: What if your only option was a Byzantine Rite liturgy that hasn't been changed with Vatican II, but is still in communion with what you'd call the Conciliar Church?  Would you stay home rather than attending and receiving the sacraments there?  If so, why, and why do you think that would increase your chances of saving your soul?

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 04:52:51 PM »
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The validity of a particular rite is not a dogma of the Church....If you were to be damned for attending the Church's main rite of Mass, it'd be exactly that and the Gates of Hell would have prevailed...That's just not what the term orthodox means. It doesn't apply to the issue of rite at all.
You are focusing on the too-narrow issue of the new mass, as being only a change of rite.  The issue with new-catholics are the V2 ideals they hold either explicitly or implicitly, consciously or unconsciously, fully or partially.  These false ideals (i.e. the heresies of Modernism in V2...AND the heresies promoted in the 50 years since) they will gradually absorb from the V2 priests, who had V2 seminary training, and from the V2 philosophies of many other liberal/progressive "catholics" who write books, speak, etc and who are promoted by such priests, or at least condoned by their silence.  Those poor novus ordo/indult catholics "don't know what they don't know" and they are being corrupted SYSTEMATICALLY, in schools, in seminaries, in books, in speeches, in false-translations of encyclicals, etc.  All of this happens outside of the 1.5 hrs on sunday at mass.  So even if they go to a "conservative" priest who says a "conservative" novus ordo, their faith is being consistently, systematically and slowly attacked every day of the week by numerous wolves who hide in sheep's clothing.  The problem is much larger than the new rite.