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Author Topic: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!  (Read 9603 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2019, 10:56:28 AM »
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I personally consider the FSSP to be overall a very compromised group. But the individuals in the group are obviously Catholic! They are very conservative Catholics, certainly in possession of the Catholic Faith.
The FSSP accepts V2 and the new mass, as an organizational philosophy.  The # of priests who preach against V2 and the new mass are few.  Those who do so consistently are non-existent.  Consequently, we must say that, in general, the FSSP does not form catholic laity or priests who have the full, 100% Traditional Faith since they accept V2's errors and the new mass' anti-Trent theology.
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Every single catholic who lived since 1517 has been infected with Protestantism to some degree.  And we've all been infected with Modernism, consumerism and socialism as well in our personal lives.  But we recognize these failings because we are Traditional Catholics who have been taught 100% orthodoxy, so we are able to recognize that which is unorthodox.  The FSSP's philosophy is to accept V2 and the new mass, therefore they are blind (to some degree) in recognizing unorthodox ideals, though they may stick with the Traditional liturgy.  I cannot say that FSSP catholics "possess the Faith" in the same way that true Trads do.  If we were allowed to say the FSSP possesses the Faith, in general, then we have no reason to criticize +Fellay's new-sspx, which aspires to be just what the FSSP is - a compromise of Christ (Eternal Truth) with V2 ("truth" for the modern man).  Those few indulters who know their Faith, know it due to some other influence or self-study. 
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I hope and pray that all Indult catholics save their souls but they still need to convert before this happens. 

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2019, 11:23:05 AM »
I hope and pray that all Indult catholics save their souls but they still need to convert before this happens.
Are you serious? You would stop and scruple about giving an FSSP man a Catholic burial if he failed to "convert" before death? 

There is only one Faith that saves souls into Heaven, the Catholic Faith.

If you believe all the truths the Catholic Church teaches because God has revealed them, and die in the state of grace, you will save your soul. I believe such Catholics are found in every Trad group, and even in the Conciliar Church.

But that doesn't mean we should all treat the Conciliar Church as low risk. There might only be 2% (or less!) of the population that still has the Faith -- the rest pick and choose what 
THEY FEEL is right, mostly based on their own convenience and what the World believes. Once you start picking and choosing, you're a heretic and you don't have the Faith, period.
Material heretics could still have the Faith. Remember that.

And to a lesser degree, the Indult groups are dangerous, but less so than the Novus Ordo. All should be left behind to increase one's chances -- but there is nothing fundamental that happens when a Catholic "moves upward" into a better lifeboat. That is my point. It is not a conversion. It is just getting smarter, more prudent, and increasing one's chances to keep the Faith.

One does not have to be prudent or wise to save his soul. He could do some really dumb things, trust the wrong people, and end up getting lucky. But going with a PRUDENT and WISE choice of lifeboat to preserve one's Faith during this Crisis increases one's chances of keeping the Faith and not getting swept into countless errors which might cause one to fall into sin and/or material heresy and/or sufferings that God didn't intend for you to endure.

Only God can judge and determine if individual souls "have the Faith" or not. You seem to be talking about material knowledge, which varies in a granular manner from 1 to 1,000,000. But many facts of Liturgy and Church History aren't required to save one's soul. Neither is any particular Catholic private prayer or devotion.  There are essentials that are required to be Catholic, not to mention the virtue of Faith which you can't see, and that is what I was referring to when I spoke about the FSSP supporters being "Catholic".


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2019, 01:33:30 PM »
We are to avoid the Novus Ordo Mass specifically, and stay aloof from the Conciliar Church, due to the danger of Modernist contagion and risk to our Catholic Faith.

Well, there's got to be more than that.  I believe that the Novus Ordo Mass displeases God.  Otherwise, if it were merely about the danger to my faith, I believe that I could go receive the Sacraments there without endangering my faith.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2019, 01:36:25 PM »
Yes, it's a mistake to lump in conversative Novus Ordo Catholics with, say, the Orthodox.  Those Novus Ordites still profess the Catholic faith, and many of them would never knowingly deny any Catholic dogma or doctrine.  Many are merely in material error.  Orthodox, on the other hand, profess schism from the Catholic Church.  So the Novus Ordo creates a very muddy situation.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2019, 02:49:00 PM »
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There is only one Faith that saves souls into Heaven, the Catholic Faith.
Which V2 does not profess...fully.  And V2 catholics do not profess fully either.
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but there is nothing fundamental that happens when a Catholic "moves upward" into a better lifeboat.
When a novus ordo catholic accepts Tradition, there is an expectation that they are rejecting the V2 modernism and accepting the 100% pure Faith.  This is (or should be) a fundamental change in their spiritual life.
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Material heretics could still have the Faith. Remember that.
They could have part of the Faith, or 95% of it, but not the full Faith.  We must still try to convert the novus ordo and indult catholics who are not fully orthodox.  Can they be saved who accept V2 willingly and knowingly?  Only God knows but I cannot condone their error, as we all have the duty to correct our ignorance.
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There are essentials that are required to be Catholic, not to mention the virtue of Faith which you can't see, and that is what I was referring to when I spoke about the FSSP supporters being "Catholic".
One essential is that "outside the Church there is no salvation".  How many V2/indult catholics believe this correctly?  Very few.
Let's not forget that much of the "Faith" you see in indult communities comes from former Trads who were properly educated.