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Offline Matthew

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  • We are to avoid the Novus Ordo Mass specifically, and stay aloof from the Conciliar Church, due to the danger of Modernist contagion and risk to our Catholic Faith.

    However, that does not extend to refusing to speak to individual Catholics, excommunicating all Novus Ordo attendees as "non-Catholic", or rejecting all organizations whose employees attend the Novus Ordo.

    How do I say it nicely? There are plenty of things that Trads can't or won't do. So God bless those "novus order" Catholics and organizations!

    There are many GOOD, PRAISEWORTHY apostolates which Trads are unable/unwilling to do. I'm tempted to throw in a bunch of digs against Trads here. Ok, I'll be brief: they can be very discouraged, having a siege mentality, apocalyptic, negative, as well as apathetic/lazy and lacking ambition. I've been a Trad all my life, so I know Trads all too well, so I am well qualified to criticize them.

    Sure, there are some organizations or businesses which are intimately tied up with the new Conciliar Religion. Modern Catholic book publishers, for example. 1. We have several Trad Catholic book publishers, so why not favor them? and 2. books are something that can be tainted by the new religion.

    But Trads should NOT dismiss countless good apostolates which have no Trad equivalent, and/or which aren't completely nullified by contact with the Novus Ordo.

    Don't pretend such organizations don't exist. There are plenty!

    Pro-life movement, news and Catholic action organizations like LifeSiteNews
    Church supply companies like Leaflet Missal and Autom -- they have modern crap for sale, but also many completely traditional products.
    All the many individual companies who make cassocks, surplices, and religious goods to sell in catalogs like Autom and Leaflet Missal.
    Organizations pushing important apparitions like Fatima
    Organizations like Abby Johnson's which focus on finding alternate employment for Abortion industry workers (I bet no Trads are working on this one!)
    Specific apostolates like orphanages, charities, helping the poor, soup kitchens, shelters, helping women in crisis pregnancies, helping women who regret abortions, "Project Rachael" -- the list is very long.

    There aren't enough go-getter Trads WILLING and ABLE to create their own large apostolates to do these things. How can we write off as "novus ordo" these good apostolates, organizations, and businesses when we Trads have nothing to replace them with -- and they are doing good work which NEEDS to be done.

    Long story short, there are Catholics in the Novus Ordo. Sure, many of them are defective materially in their knowledge, and maybe they even have bad habits thanks to their priests. But they have the Faith. They are there to serve God and do His will. They only *tolerate* the crap. This group of good-willed Catholics is the group from which Catholics discover Tradition and become Traditional Catholics. People enter Tradition on a regular basis!
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #1 on: April 19, 2019, 09:29:55 AM »
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  • I should add --

    Businesses like Autom and Leaflet Missal *better* be OK with the Conciliar Church, because otherwise how would they stay in business? They better sell white albs for vesting altar girls and rainbow sashes for Californian priests, because they're going to sell a lot more of them than Traditional cassocks and surplices. I've said dozens of times that Trads aren't a large enough group to provide anybody a living. No one manages to make a living catering to Trads exclusively, unless they are a priest.

    Trads are too small of a group, and frankly they don't have much money to spend on anything. I wish this wasn't the case!

    So any business that believes so strongly in the Trad cause that they only want to cater to Trads, had better be a side business run from someone's home! Because $300 a month selling Trad wares isn't enough income to support a single person, much less a large family.

    No one is more qualified than me to say this. I was intimately involved with TAN Books for a long time, plus I have worked with many Trads over the years in various businesses and endeavors, plus many of my own! I know what I'm talking about.

    TAN Books and Publishers came close in their heyday, but today they have less than 10 employees. And of course they aren't a strictly Trad business anymore, ever since they were bought out by St. Benedict Press in 2009.
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #2 on: April 19, 2019, 09:51:43 AM »
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  • We are to avoid the Novus Ordo Mass specifically, and stay aloof from the Conciliar Church, due to the danger of Modernist contagion and risk to our Catholic Faith.

    However, that does not extend to refusing to speak to individual Catholics, excommunicating all Novus Ordo attendees as "non-Catholic", or rejecting all organizations whose employees attend the Novus Ordo.

    How do I say it nicely? There are plenty of things that Trads can't or won't do. So God bless those "novus order" Catholics and organizations!

    There are many GOOD, PRAISEWORTHY apostolates which Trads are unable/unwilling to do. I'm tempted to throw in a bunch of digs against Trads here. Ok, I'll be brief: they can be very discouraged, having a siege mentality, apocalyptic, negative, as well as apathetic/lazy and lacking ambition. I've been a Trad all my life, so I know Trads all too well, so I am well qualified to criticize them.

    Sure, there are some organizations or businesses which are intimately tied up with the new Conciliar Religion. Modern Catholic book publishers, for example. 1. We have several Trad Catholic book publishers, so why not favor them? and 2. books are something that can be tainted by the new religion.

    But Trads should NOT dismiss countless good apostolates which have no Trad equivalent, and/or which aren't completely nullified by contact with the Novus Ordo.

    Don't pretend such organizations don't exist. There are plenty!

    Pro-life movement, news and Catholic action organizations like LifeSiteNews
    Church supply companies like Leaflet Missal and Autom -- they have modern crap for sale, but also many completely traditional products.
    All the many individual companies who make cassocks, surplices, and religious goods to sell in catalogs like Autom and Leaflet Missal.
    Organizations pushing important apparitions like Fatima
    Organizations like Abby Johnson's which focus on finding alternate employment for Abortion industry workers (I bet no Trads are working on this one!)
    Specific apostolates like orphanages, charities, helping the poor, soup kitchens, shelters, helping women in crisis pregnancies, helping women who regret abortions, "Project Rachael" -- the list is very long.

    There aren't enough go-getter Trads WILLING and ABLE to create their own large apostolates to do these things. How can we write off as "novus ordo" these good apostolates, organizations, and businesses when we Trads have nothing to replace them with -- and they are doing good work which NEEDS to be done.

    Long story short, there are Catholics in the Novus Ordo. Sure, many of them are defective materially in their knowledge, and maybe they even have bad habits thanks to their priests. But they have the Faith. They are there to serve God and do His will. They only *tolerate* the crap. This group of good-willed Catholics is the group from which Catholics discover Tradition and become Traditional Catholics. People enter Tradition on a regular basis!
    It’s funny you should say this. I was wondering the other day if I should be donating to FOCUS. It is the Fellowship of Catholic University Students. They are the ones who got me back in to the Faith after going to Protestant services after my conversion from the Hare Krishnas. I’ve been thinking lately, that it might be wrong to give them money because it is a Novus Ordo apostolate. But I’ve come up with both reasons to donate to them and to not.
    Also, as far as Trad apostolates go, check out my friend Kevin’s apostolate. It’s called Souls of the Christian Apostolate. He can be found on YouTube and a google search will bring up his website. He attends FSSP, but he is an intelligent and holy young man, working for students in Denver.
    Humble thy spirit very much: for the vengeance on the flesh of the ungodly is fire and worms. - Ecclesiasticus 7:18

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #3 on: April 19, 2019, 10:23:09 AM »
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  • Yes, and also there is the "Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation", they are primarily FSSP parishioners, and collaborate with the Novus Ordo, but they also able to reach the people within the Novus ordo and introduce them to Tradition. They even got an open invitation to teach at all the seminaries in Uganda. For those Africans, this will be the first exposure to certain aspects of the Traditional Catholic faith.

    Another example is the TFP, despite all their problems, they are the only ones I see who are constantly protesting and petitioning all types of blasphemies that most of us would never know is going on had they not bring it to our attention. 

    Everyone who found his or her way out of the Novus Ordo to Tradition had to start somewhere.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #4 on: April 19, 2019, 10:36:21 AM »
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  • He attends FSSP, but he is an intelligent and holy young man, working for students in Denver.

    Well, let's pray that he receives the grace of conversion before death.

    I'M KIDDING! :)

    It's a good example of what I mean though.

    I personally consider the FSSP to be overall a very compromised group. But the individuals in the group are obviously Catholic! They are very conservative Catholics, certainly in possession of the Catholic Faith.

    About the FSSP:

    Traditional Catholics, from the very beginning, have held 3 essential principles:
    1. Leave the Conciliar Church and Novus Ordo behind completely, regardless of having a Trad option lined up for Mass. Stay home on Sunday if no Tridentine Mass available.
    2. Seek out SURE sacraments in "lifeboats": valid priests to offer both the Tridentine Mass and traditional Sacraments, and support them wherever they are, even at independently set up "Traditional chapels" which Rome considers "illicit" or "un-canonical". Treat them for all practical purposes like one's local parish.
    3. Believe "I don't need permission from the Pope, or Modernist Rome, to stay Catholic". That is, believe in supplied jurisdiction for Mass and ALL sacraments, and have NO scruples about attaching oneself to, and fully supporting, such Trad chapels and building them up.

    Those elements are common to 100% of Traditional Catholics. Anyone who scruples about going to Confession to a Trad priest because he doesn't have official jurisdiction or faculties from the local Bishop, for example, is not a Trad. He might be conservative, but if he doesn't understand that Catholics have a right to keep their Faith, and a need for the Sacraments, they have a lot to learn and therefore are not yet "Traditional Catholic".

    Enter the FSSP:
    Since part of their essence is "approval/permission from Rome" they are technically not Trad, since such approval was not part of the Trad package from the beginning. But more importantly, it actually contradicts principle #3, above. From the beginning of the movement in the 1970's, getting permission from Rome was certainly NOT one of the elements of the Traditional movement. So the FSSP is a new kind of conservative Catholic at best ("Indult Catholic"? "Latin Mass Catholic"?).

    While Sedevacantists ALSO added another element to the Traditional manifesto, "4. The putative pope is not pope at all.", this is different in two main ways:
    1. A good number of Trads believed this from the beginning. It was there, just not universal. So they are a specific sub-type of Trad, rather than SOMETHING OTHER THAN Trad.
    2. Their additional belief doesn't contradict Trad principles 1-3.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #5 on: April 19, 2019, 10:56:28 AM »
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    I personally consider the FSSP to be overall a very compromised group. But the individuals in the group are obviously Catholic! They are very conservative Catholics, certainly in possession of the Catholic Faith.
    The FSSP accepts V2 and the new mass, as an organizational philosophy.  The # of priests who preach against V2 and the new mass are few.  Those who do so consistently are non-existent.  Consequently, we must say that, in general, the FSSP does not form catholic laity or priests who have the full, 100% Traditional Faith since they accept V2's errors and the new mass' anti-Trent theology.
    .
    Every single catholic who lived since 1517 has been infected with Protestantism to some degree.  And we've all been infected with Modernism, consumerism and socialism as well in our personal lives.  But we recognize these failings because we are Traditional Catholics who have been taught 100% orthodoxy, so we are able to recognize that which is unorthodox.  The FSSP's philosophy is to accept V2 and the new mass, therefore they are blind (to some degree) in recognizing unorthodox ideals, though they may stick with the Traditional liturgy.  I cannot say that FSSP catholics "possess the Faith" in the same way that true Trads do.  If we were allowed to say the FSSP possesses the Faith, in general, then we have no reason to criticize +Fellay's new-sspx, which aspires to be just what the FSSP is - a compromise of Christ (Eternal Truth) with V2 ("truth" for the modern man).  Those few indulters who know their Faith, know it due to some other influence or self-study. 
    .
    I hope and pray that all Indult catholics save their souls but they still need to convert before this happens. 

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #6 on: April 19, 2019, 11:23:05 AM »
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  • I hope and pray that all Indult catholics save their souls but they still need to convert before this happens.
    Are you serious? You would stop and scruple about giving an FSSP man a Catholic burial if he failed to "convert" before death? 

    There is only one Faith that saves souls into Heaven, the Catholic Faith.

    If you believe all the truths the Catholic Church teaches because God has revealed them, and die in the state of grace, you will save your soul. I believe such Catholics are found in every Trad group, and even in the Conciliar Church.

    But that doesn't mean we should all treat the Conciliar Church as low risk. There might only be 2% (or less!) of the population that still has the Faith -- the rest pick and choose what 
    THEY FEEL is right, mostly based on their own convenience and what the World believes. Once you start picking and choosing, you're a heretic and you don't have the Faith, period.
    Material heretics could still have the Faith. Remember that.

    And to a lesser degree, the Indult groups are dangerous, but less so than the Novus Ordo. All should be left behind to increase one's chances -- but there is nothing fundamental that happens when a Catholic "moves upward" into a better lifeboat. That is my point. It is not a conversion. It is just getting smarter, more prudent, and increasing one's chances to keep the Faith.

    One does not have to be prudent or wise to save his soul. He could do some really dumb things, trust the wrong people, and end up getting lucky. But going with a PRUDENT and WISE choice of lifeboat to preserve one's Faith during this Crisis increases one's chances of keeping the Faith and not getting swept into countless errors which might cause one to fall into sin and/or material heresy and/or sufferings that God didn't intend for you to endure.

    Only God can judge and determine if individual souls "have the Faith" or not. You seem to be talking about material knowledge, which varies in a granular manner from 1 to 1,000,000. But many facts of Liturgy and Church History aren't required to save one's soul. Neither is any particular Catholic private prayer or devotion.  There are essentials that are required to be Catholic, not to mention the virtue of Faith which you can't see, and that is what I was referring to when I spoke about the FSSP supporters being "Catholic".
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #7 on: April 19, 2019, 01:33:30 PM »
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  • We are to avoid the Novus Ordo Mass specifically, and stay aloof from the Conciliar Church, due to the danger of Modernist contagion and risk to our Catholic Faith.

    Well, there's got to be more than that.  I believe that the Novus Ordo Mass displeases God.  Otherwise, if it were merely about the danger to my faith, I believe that I could go receive the Sacraments there without endangering my faith.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #8 on: April 19, 2019, 01:36:25 PM »
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  • Yes, it's a mistake to lump in conversative Novus Ordo Catholics with, say, the Orthodox.  Those Novus Ordites still profess the Catholic faith, and many of them would never knowingly deny any Catholic dogma or doctrine.  Many are merely in material error.  Orthodox, on the other hand, profess schism from the Catholic Church.  So the Novus Ordo creates a very muddy situation.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #9 on: April 19, 2019, 02:49:00 PM »
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  • Quote
    There is only one Faith that saves souls into Heaven, the Catholic Faith.
    Which V2 does not profess...fully.  And V2 catholics do not profess fully either.
    Quote
    but there is nothing fundamental that happens when a Catholic "moves upward" into a better lifeboat.
    When a novus ordo catholic accepts Tradition, there is an expectation that they are rejecting the V2 modernism and accepting the 100% pure Faith.  This is (or should be) a fundamental change in their spiritual life.
    Quote
    Material heretics could still have the Faith. Remember that.
    They could have part of the Faith, or 95% of it, but not the full Faith.  We must still try to convert the novus ordo and indult catholics who are not fully orthodox.  Can they be saved who accept V2 willingly and knowingly?  Only God knows but I cannot condone their error, as we all have the duty to correct our ignorance.
    Quote
    There are essentials that are required to be Catholic, not to mention the virtue of Faith which you can't see, and that is what I was referring to when I spoke about the FSSP supporters being "Catholic".
    One essential is that "outside the Church there is no salvation".  How many V2/indult catholics believe this correctly?  Very few.
    Let's not forget that much of the "Faith" you see in indult communities comes from former Trads who were properly educated. 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #10 on: April 19, 2019, 02:54:29 PM »
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  • Agree completely. I was honestly shocked and horrified when I first heard people declare that Catholics who attended Novus Ordo masses were damned schismatics. For the average person they had no reason to believe they should've ran for the hills after Vatican 2. It was, and still is, very possible to go to a Novus Ordo Mass every Sunday as a devout Catholic professing all the dogmas of the Faith, and not realise there's anything wrong with the rite at all. Sure these days we have access to constant streams of news on scandals in the Church and the latest crazy outbursts of Francis, so it's much harder to be ignorant of the Crisis today, but it was very possible for the first few decades of the Crisis and still possible for some today. 

    And even if someone was aware of the Crisis but truly believed the Novus Ordo rite was valid and proper, and held the Catholic faith in whole, I don't think they're a heretic or a schismatic or the like. In error and needing correction? From our view, and we should endeavour to do that. But some heretic or schismatic damned to Hell, as the Dimonds and co. would tell us? Hardly.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #11 on: April 19, 2019, 03:20:52 PM »
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    And even if someone was aware of the Crisis but truly believed the Novus Ordo rite was valid and proper, and held the Catholic faith in whole,
    This is a contradiction.  What someone believes is different from the Truth.  A Novus Ordo catholic cannot have the "whole" faith, because the novus ordo is not wholly catholic.

    Quote
    I don't think they're a heretic or a schismatic or the like. In error and needing correction? From our view, and we should endeavour to do that.
    If someone is in error on the Faith, (and we're talking about substantial error), then by definition, they are either a material heretic or a schismatic, or some combination thereof.  And yes, I agree, it's our duty to teach them, if they will listen. 

    Quote
    But some heretic or schismatic damned to Hell, as the Dimonds and co. would tell us? Hardly.
    It's not our job to damn anyone to hell.  It's not even the CHURCH's job to do that.  And the Church has NEVER done so, on an individual basis.  But...the Church does teach that ignorance of the Truth or a holding to an error (even if the error is held "sincerely") will not suffice for salvation.  How this applies to Joe Doe is up to God.  But we can't water down Catholic Truths and we cannot say that someone who objectively holds error (even part error) has "the Faith".  This is lowering the bar for everyone.
    .
    We must pray and work tirelessly to convert all those who are not 100% orthodox, even if they think they are.  Christ died on the Cross for all men, but only some will accept His grace.  For those that will, many are not yet part of His Church, or are only partly.  As He told us in Scripture: "And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring..." (John 10:16).  It's our job to bring these others to the fullness of the truth and that starts by recognizing their errors so we can instruct the ignorant.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #12 on: April 19, 2019, 03:48:02 PM »
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  • This is a contradiction.  What someone believes is different from the Truth.  A Novus Ordo catholic cannot have the "whole" faith, because the novus ordo is not wholly catholic.
    If someone is in error on the Faith, (and we're talking about substantial error), then by definition, they are either a material heretic or a schismatic, or some combination thereof.  And yes, I agree, it's our duty to teach them, if they will listen.
    The validity of a particular rite is not a dogma of the Church.

    It's not our job to damn anyone to hell.  It's not even the CHURCH's job to do that.  And the Church has NEVER done so, on an individual basis.  But...the Church does teach that ignorance of the Truth or a holding to an error (even if the error is held "sincerely") will not suffice for salvation.  How this applies to Joe Doe is up to God.  But we can't water down Catholic Truths and we cannot say that someone who objectively holds error (even part error) has "the Faith".  This is lowering the bar for everyone.
    The Church also teaches that the Church cannot lead you into damnation. If you were to be damned for attending the Church's main rite of Mass, it'd be exactly that and the Gates of Hell would have prevailed.

    Only way around that would be to declare that all the clergy are invalid and that the Church in Rome is not the Catholic Church at all. Which would still leave us with a problem of how the real Church being non-existent doesn't contradict the indefectibility of the Church.

    We must pray and work tirelessly to convert all those who are not 100% orthodox, even if they think they are.  Christ died on the Cross for all men, but only some will accept His grace.  For those that will, many are not yet part of His Church, or are only partly.  As He told us in Scripture: "And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring..." (John 10:16).  It's our job to bring these others to the fullness of the truth and that starts by recognizing their errors so we can instruct the ignorant.
    That's just not what the term orthodox means. It doesn't apply to the issue of rite at all.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 04:40:32 PM »
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  • Well, let's pray that he receives the grace of conversion before death.

    I'M KIDDING! :)

    It's a good example of what I mean though.

    I personally consider the FSSP to be overall a very compromised group. But the individuals in the group are obviously Catholic! They are very conservative Catholics, certainly in possession of the Catholic Faith.

    About the FSSP:

    Traditional Catholics, from the very beginning, have held 3 essential principles:
    1. Leave the Conciliar Church and Novus Ordo behind completely, regardless of having a Trad option lined up for Mass. Stay home on Sunday if no Tridentine Mass available.
    2. Seek out SURE sacraments in "lifeboats": valid priests to offer both the Tridentine Mass and traditional Sacraments, and support them wherever they are, even at independently set up "Traditional chapels" which Rome considers "illicit" or "un-canonical". Treat them for all practical purposes like one's local parish.
    3. Believe "I don't need permission from the Pope, or Modernist Rome, to stay Catholic". That is, believe in supplied jurisdiction for Mass and ALL sacraments, and have NO scruples about attaching oneself to, and fully supporting, such Trad chapels and building them up.

    Those elements are common to 100% of Traditional Catholics. Anyone who scruples about going to Confession to a Trad priest because he doesn't have official jurisdiction or faculties from the local Bishop, for example, is not a Trad. He might be conservative, but if he doesn't understand that Catholics have a right to keep their Faith, and a need for the Sacraments, they have a lot to learn and therefore are not yet "Traditional Catholic".

    Enter the FSSP:
    Since part of their essence is "approval/permission from Rome" they are technically not Trad, since such approval was not part of the Trad package from the beginning. But more importantly, it actually contradicts principle #3, above. From the beginning of the movement in the 1970's, getting permission from Rome was certainly NOT one of the elements of the Traditional movement. So the FSSP is a new kind of conservative Catholic at best ("Indult Catholic"? "Latin Mass Catholic"?).

    While Sedevacantists ALSO added another element to the Traditional manifesto, "4. The putative pope is not pope at all.", this is different in two main ways:
    1. A good number of Trads believed this from the beginning. It was there, just not universal. So they are a specific sub-type of Trad, rather than SOMETHING OTHER THAN Trad.
    2. Their additional belief doesn't contradict Trad principles 1-3.
    This raises a couple of questions from me."

    1: I get the reasoning behind staying home rather than attending a Novus Ordo, but would you also stay home rather than attending a Tridentine Mass at a place like the FSSP if those were your only options?  And if so why?  Why would doing that increase your chances of saving your soul?

    2: What if your only option was a Byzantine Rite liturgy that hasn't been changed with Vatican II, but is still in communion with what you'd call the Conciliar Church?  Would you stay home rather than attending and receiving the sacraments there?  If so, why, and why do you think that would increase your chances of saving your soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Avoid the Novus Ordo Mass, yes. Not every Catholic who attends it!
    « Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 04:52:51 PM »
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  • Quote
    The validity of a particular rite is not a dogma of the Church....If you were to be damned for attending the Church's main rite of Mass, it'd be exactly that and the Gates of Hell would have prevailed...That's just not what the term orthodox means. It doesn't apply to the issue of rite at all.
    You are focusing on the too-narrow issue of the new mass, as being only a change of rite.  The issue with new-catholics are the V2 ideals they hold either explicitly or implicitly, consciously or unconsciously, fully or partially.  These false ideals (i.e. the heresies of Modernism in V2...AND the heresies promoted in the 50 years since) they will gradually absorb from the V2 priests, who had V2 seminary training, and from the V2 philosophies of many other liberal/progressive "catholics" who write books, speak, etc and who are promoted by such priests, or at least condoned by their silence.  Those poor novus ordo/indult catholics "don't know what they don't know" and they are being corrupted SYSTEMATICALLY, in schools, in seminaries, in books, in speeches, in false-translations of encyclicals, etc.  All of this happens outside of the 1.5 hrs on sunday at mass.  So even if they go to a "conservative" priest who says a "conservative" novus ordo, their faith is being consistently, systematically and slowly attacked every day of the week by numerous wolves who hide in sheep's clothing.  The problem is much larger than the new rite.

     

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