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Author Topic: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics  (Read 4575 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
« on: November 04, 2025, 09:05:08 PM »
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  • There was quotes by Popes about not praying for deceased non-Catholics in a recent thread about Kirk/Boru. Here is another quote but this time from St Augustine.


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    St. Augustine, Sermon 172, 5th century: “There can be no doubt at all that these things [i.e. prayers] are of value to the departed; but to such of them as lived in such a way before they died, as would enable them to profit from these things after death.  For those, you see, who have departed from their bodies without the faith that works through love (Gal 5:6) and its sacraments, acts of piety of this sort are performed in vain.”


    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #1 on: November 05, 2025, 06:43:41 AM »
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  • God alone knows the final state of a soul, and prayer can be offered for anyone who died outside the Church, out of a desire for the salvation of all souls and in the hope of divine intervention at the moment of death. 


    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #2 on: November 05, 2025, 06:51:40 AM »
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  • God alone knows the final state of a soul, and prayer can be offered for anyone who died outside the Church, out of a desire for the salvation of all souls and in the hope of divine intervention at the moment of death.
    Literal word-for-word denial of Catholic dogma. At least you aren't subtle about it:facepalm:



    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #3 on: November 05, 2025, 07:08:22 AM »
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  • Literal word-for-word denial of Catholic dogma. At least you aren't subtle about it:facepalm:
    Can. 901 A priest is free to apply the Mass for anyone, living or dead.

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #4 on: November 05, 2025, 07:42:07 AM »
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  • Can. 901 A priest is free to apply the Mass for anyone, living or dead.
    You're going to use the 1983 Code to support your denial of Catholic dogma?

    1917 code (which is not infallible, but at least was promulgated by the true Church):


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    Canon 809

    It is basic that Mass can be applied for the living and for the dead undergoing expiation by fire in
    purgatory, with due regard for the prescription of Canon 2262, § 2, n. 2.


    Canon 2262 (Cross-Ref.: CIC 809)

    § 1. One excommunicated is not able to participate in the indulgences, suffrages, and public
    prayers of the Church.

    § 2. Nevertheless, it is not prohibited:
    1.° For the faithful to pray privately for him;
    2.° For priests privately and avoiding scandal to apply Mass for him; but, if he is banned,
    only for his conversion



    So mass can be said for the dead in purgatory, i.e. Catholics

    Masses and prayers are allowed to be said privately, to avoid scandal, for living excommunicated persons (doesn't even say non-Catholics in general, but those who have been excommunicated)

    Just think about that, to avoid scandal, it was permitted to only pray or say masses privately for a living excommunicant. And here you are publicly saying Catholics can pray and masses can be said for dead non-Catholics
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #5 on: November 05, 2025, 08:50:26 AM »
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  • The Roman Church has never erred. Nor will it err, to all eternity.

    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #6 on: November 05, 2025, 09:13:57 AM »
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  • Also check out 2 Maccabees 12:46 and 1 Samuel 16:7

    May the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. But God alone knows the state of a soul at death. Thus, in our charity and love for all men – since we desire all to be saved – we continue to pour forth private prayers for the conversion and salvation and mitigation of Purgatory for everyone, even those who in our eyes died outside the Church but who may have made a perfect Act of Contrition or who became Catholic by divine intervention right before the moment of death.

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #7 on: November 05, 2025, 09:27:27 AM »
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  • The Roman Church has never erred. Nor will it err, to all eternity.

    I agree..Please consider how what you posted before contradicts these teachings:

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    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: "There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice."

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    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: "With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin... Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff."

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    Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra: "Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism..."

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    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: "Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity."

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    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Cantate Domino," 1441, ex cathedra: "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

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    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra: "For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith."

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    Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, "Iniunctum nobis," Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: "This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved... I now profess and truly hold..."
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    Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: "This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold..."

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    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: "This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold..."

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    Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo lugiter Studio, Stu 590-604: "The holy universal Church teaches that it is no that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved."

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    Pope Innocent II, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: "By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic stolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.

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    Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351: "In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.

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    Pope St. Pius V, Bull excommunicating the heretic Queen Elizabeth of England, Feb. 25, 1570: "The sovereign jurisdiction of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, has been given by Him [Jesus Christ], unto Whom all power in Heaven and on Earth is given, the King who reigns on high, but to one person on the face of the Earth, to Peter, prince of the Apostles... If any shall contravene this Our decree, we bind them with the same bond of anathema


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    Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824:
    "It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members... by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism... This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church."
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    Pope Leo XII, Quod hoc ineunte (# 8), May 24, 1824: "We address all of you who are still removed from the true Church and the road to salvation. In this universal rejoicing, one thing is lacking: that having been called by the inspiration of the Heavenly Spirit and having broken every decisive snare, you might sincerely agree with the mother Church, outside of whose teachings there is no salvation."

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    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: "With the admonition of the apostle, that 'there is one God, one faith, one baptism' (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that 'those who are not with Christ are against Him,' (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, 'without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed)."


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    Pope Gregory XVI, Summo lugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
    "Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life."
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    Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum (# 10), June 17, 1847: "For 'there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism."

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    Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: "In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics)."

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    Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Modern Errors, Dec. 8, 1864 - Proposition 16: "Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation."  - Condemned

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    Pope Leo XIII, Tametsi futura prospicientibus (# 7), Nov. 1, 1900: "Christ is man's 'Way'; the Church also is his 'Way'... Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain."

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    Pope St. Pius X, Iucunda sane (# 9), March 12, 1904: "Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal Salvation..."

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    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation."

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #8 on: November 05, 2025, 10:14:54 AM »
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  • Also check out 2 Maccabees 12:46 and 1 Samuel 16:7

    May the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. But God alone knows the state of a soul at death. Thus, in our charity and love for all men – since we desire all to be saved – we continue to pour forth private prayers for the conversion and salvation and mitigation of Purgatory for everyone

    Yes, the infamous assertion of the Dogma followed by a "but" or "however". The numerous times Councils and Popes have taught the dogma they never followed with a "but"...that is because the dogma was always taught without exception, and we are bound to accept the dogma as it is written.

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    even those who in our eyes died outside the Church 
    That is why they are presumed to be lost. If, simply for the sake of the argument, they is some chance they are saved and in purgatory..the lack of prayers said for them could very well be a part of their punishment for not having actually become members of the Church in their earthly life. Regardless, we have no business theorizing that they may be saved. That only serves to undermine the Dogma.

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    but who may have made a perfect Act of Contrition or who became Catholic by divine intervention right before the moment of death
    Why do you beg the question that God would allow anyone He wishes to gift salvation to to die without affording him the means to actually enter the Church? No council or Pope ever taught this to the faithful. We are taught that the only those who have received Baptism and profess the true Faith are members of the Church, outside of which there is no salvation. What you are doing is reducing the Dogma to a meaningless formula..which is what Pope Pius IX, I believe, greatly lamented

    The results of this theory are already clear: The vast majority of those who profess to be Catholic do not actually believe the most important Dogma: that there is no salvation outside of the Church



    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #9 on: November 05, 2025, 11:06:46 AM »
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  • I'm sorry my "but" bothers you. 
    My sentence has the same truth without my "but".

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #10 on: November 05, 2025, 11:27:07 AM »
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  • I'm sorry my "but" bothers you. 
    My sentence has the same truth without my "but".
    EENS-deniers being compelled to add "but" or "however" after asserting the Dogma is a pretty well observed phenomenon at this point..to those who care.  It may not bother you, but quite literally every time I have seen someone do it they go on to deny/undermine the Dogma, yourself included 

    Can you explain how saying that Catholics can and should pray for all who have died, Catholic or non-Catholic, does not reduce the most important Dogma (which has never and will never admit exceptions) to a meaningless formula?

    And again:

    Why do you beg the question that God would allow anyone He wishes to gift salvation to to die without affording him the means to actually enter the Church? No council or Pope ever taught this to the faithful. We are taught that the only those who have received Baptism and profess the true Faith are members of the Church, outside of which there is no salvation.

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #11 on: November 05, 2025, 12:01:33 PM »
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  • When St. Augustine said what he said the only baptized Christians were Catholic.  Now in 2025 we have properly baptized Protestants and Novus Ordites, so how can you apply St  Augustine's words to the current society.  I think it really is getting more difficult to decide who is truly a part of the Catholic Church.  My guess is pray for all deceased in private and God will handle the rest.  Let's keep it simple.
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline SimonJude

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #12 on: November 05, 2025, 12:12:27 PM »
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  • I specifically stated that that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church....

    If "perfect Act of Contrition or who became Catholic by divine intervention right before the moment of death," bothers you, I suggest you read Luke 23:42-43.

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #13 on: November 05, 2025, 12:25:56 PM »
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  • I specifically stated that that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church....

    If "perfect Act of Contrition or who became Catholic by divine intervention right before the moment of death," bothers you, I suggest you read Luke 23:42-43.
    Right, they assert the Dogma and then proceed to undermine it. They are unable to assert the Dogma without immediately afterwards creating exceptions or qualifications. This Dogma has never been defined with exceptions, and it is to be believed exactly how it has been defined and taught 

    The Good Thief was saved prior to the institution of the Church, the necessity of belonging to the Church to be saved, and the necessity of Baptism to be saved.
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Augustine: Only Pray For Deceased Catholics
    « Reply #14 on: November 05, 2025, 03:49:11 PM »
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  • When St. Augustine said what he said the only baptized Christians were Catholic.  Now in 2025 we have properly baptized Protestants and Novus Ordites, so how can you apply St  Augustine's words to the current society.  I think it really is getting more difficult to decide who is truly a part of the Catholic Church.  My guess is pray for all deceased in private and God will handle the rest.  Let's keep it simple.
    There were plenty of validly baptised heretics in St Augustine's time... Pope Pius 12 says only those who are baptised AND profess the true faith are members of the Church.

    Rather than following your own will follow what God has taught by His Church. Multiple Popes said we should not pray for deceased non-Catholics, neither publicly nor privately as it causes a weakness in faith and scandal and promotes religious indifferentism.