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Author Topic: Attending Traditional mass in a Novus Ordo parish.  (Read 3143 times)

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Offline jhfromsf68

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Attending Traditional mass in a Novus Ordo parish.
« on: April 25, 2011, 04:47:48 PM »
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  •  :thinking:Hi everyone.

    I attend mass at at a parish where both the traditional and novus ordo mass are said. Recently this has started to really bother me. I feel alone in my struggles to reconcile Traditional Catholic liturgy and practice and novus ordo liturgy and practice.

    The priest of this parish is a conservative polish priest who is way into John Paul ll and announced to the parish that he going to Rome for his beautification. he got up in the pulpit and announced this right after the traditional mass had just ended. This priest makes his presence known at
    all times. I get the feeling he wants everyone to know this is HIS parish




    The priest who is assigned to say the Traditional mass at this parish is a
    good and holy priest in my opinion. He is a part of the Institute of Christ the King religious order. His sermons are good and there nothing unorthodox
    about him.


    What I'm having a problem with is practicing the traditional faith in a novus ordo environment . It feels like something hybrid is going on. Whenever I'm trying pray and unite myself with our lord, something happens that disturbs my soul, like the priest jumping into the pulpit right after mass and talking about John Paul ll. Also the they have a novus ordo altar that wheel out after the traditional mass to put in front of the traditional high altar. This bothers me because I'm kneeling there in the pew trying to give my thanksgiving after mass and I'm forced to watch the altar boys re novus ordo the sacturery.

    Alot of pious traditional Catholics attend this mass (at least they look like pious tradition Catholics) and I'm wondering if anyone other than me feels this way. it just feels like the spiritual energy is off and compromised. That's just my subjective opinion .

    I've attended sspx masses in the past. Actually my first traditional mass was with the sspx back in 1999. I've also been to their retreats and got to know a few of their priests personally and if I had a choice I would be going to a sspx mass center. But because of transportation reasons I go where t the novus ordo parish.

    I guess my question is has anyone here tried to practice the traditional faith in a novus ordo environment? How are people able to be traditional Catholics in a novus ordo parish without them realizing something is not spiritually right? Can being in this kind of environment eventually cause someone to lose their faith or at least compromise it?


    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #1 on: April 25, 2011, 05:25:31 PM »
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  • Hi jhf-

    You have a lot of good questions. Unfortunately, I don't know that asking a lot of the questions you have are right for a internet forum- have you prayed and considered your options fully? I understand that it sounds like the SSPX nearest center is a bit far for you, but you've been there before. Is it possible to make it at least monthly? have you tried reaching out to parishioners there to see if there are any who live near you? That might be a great option.

    I don't know that going to the NO would necessarily have someone lose their faith as you pose, but I can say most trads (imo) come from the NO and feel the way you do. If it were me, I would stop attending there asap- as pious and good-willed as the priest may be, and I'm sure he is for you to be so aware and keep attending, I don't believe supporting or attending a NO church is a good idea- there's too much confusion in the air. Best of luck, and God bless you!


    Offline Jitpring

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    « Reply #2 on: April 25, 2011, 05:30:14 PM »
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  • Fr. James Wathen, Who Shall Ascend? (Ch. 18):

    “Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”

    -St. Athanasius (296-373) Coll. selecta SS. Eccl. Patrum. Gaillau and Guillou. Vol. 32, pp. 411-412.

    Those who shamefacedly confess that they still attend the churches, always trying to find one less offensive and somewhat more "Catholic" than others, strain to convince themselves and others that they are not part of the apostatical organization, that they attend the most conservative church they can find, and do not participate in any of the desecrations which take place there; that they do so in order to fulfill their sabbath-day obligation, and to remain obedient to the Pope; and they give moral support to the priest there who is much opposed to what is happening, but has no other alternative but to obey the bishop.  We can only answer that this conduct is all that is required of a full-fledged member of this organization.  This is all that is required of anyone, for, it must be emphasized:  faith is not required within the New Church; there is no evidence that its bishops have any; and there is no way to distinguish which priests believe anything they say or do from those who are active agents of the Revolution.  In the New Church, attendance is participation, and (occasional) presence is membership.  Absolutely nothing else is required.

    But, someone will say: I cling to the Old Faith; I want nothing to do with THE CHANGES; I have not changed the way I pray, nor my belief; I stil have the old missal, which I pray fervently, no matter what they are doing in the sanctuary.  We answer: No, you say you believe as you used to; but this is not true.  There was a time when you would never have tolerated what you now participate in; you would never have assented to "Communion in the Hand," Humanistic theology, Protestant doctrine and hymns and phraseology, clowns at the altar, female ministers, Protestant ministers, and Pentecostalism, all of which, and more like it, are integral expressions of the New Religion.

    But, he retorts, I do not go to churches where that stuff goes on!  I go where everything is done in good order, the priest is reverent, and the people pray in the old way.  We answer: We are speaking of the unity of the New Church; it is all one.  The conservative churches are just as much a part of the Conciliar Establishment as the most avant-garde ones.  You miss the whole point if you do not recognize this.  For the Conciliar Church does not exist to proclaim or require a belief in anything; it exists only to be the parody of the True Church.  What the priests believe (or say they believe), what the people believe (or say they believe) -- (if they say anything about what they believe), and what you insist you believe (while your conduct is denying it day in, day out, year in, year out) is of absolutely no importance whatsoever.  This is why we keep insisting that the Conciliar Religion is an anti-religion. 

    The test is in what happens when one of your conservative priests ventures to tell the people the truth, when he begins not only to preach Catholic doctrine, but to condemn and warn against the false doctrines of his fellow priests and his bishop; when he begins to forbid his people to go to the other churches, and, especially when he begins to offer Holy Mass as he is supposed to.  Then, the Conciliar machine kicks into gear and manifests that, despite all its vaunted tolerance and openness, there is a limit, and there are some things which "we simply cannot allow!"; then the glove comes off the hand and the iron fist is clearly revealed.

    You, whoever you are, who imagine that you can practice the Old Faith within the Conciliar Establishment, in the interior of your heart, or at the refuge of some vestigial parish church, for which the bishop has yet to assign a Revolutionary cleric, are deceiving yourself.  You have abandoned the Faith already.  As far as they are concerned, you are what they want you to be, and where they want you to be.  Such churches are just as much a part of the diocese as any other.  Their money supports the diocese better than the more Liberal ones.

    It should not be necessary to say it, but apparently it is: There is no such thing as a purely private Catholic faith.  Of its very essence, it cannot be held merely within one's mind and heart; neither Christ nor Satan will allow it to be so.  Christ requires that you affirm what you are, whether you are a Catholic, not only by your words, but - and more importantly--by your worship.  How can you worship the true God through the Conciliar sacrilege, through a religion which worships all gods indiscriminately for no other reason than that they are all the gods of the true god, MAN?  Nor will the Devil allow you to be indeterminate about your religious conviction.  Such is the wickedness of the New Religion that apostasy and immorality are openly protected by the Conciliar Establishment.  Do we exaggerate?  We say again, every form of heresy and denial is in vogue and well-received in the Conciliar Establishment.  As to moral matters, consider only that the Counter-Church is in open alliance with Marxist and Masonic states, which are boldly and fiercely diabolic, anti-human, and anti-Christian.  In addition to this, meetings are being held for the ever closer joining of the Conciliar Church with the Protestant Establishment, under the umbrella of the World Council of Churches.  The joining of the two communions takes place gradually, not because there is any real doctrinal incompatibility between them, but to spread the phasing out of Catholic belief through phraseology over a period of years, thus to give the people time to get used to the idea.  This means, obviously, that the spirit of Protestantism stands ready to negotiate a rapproachment with any alien creed, no matter how far it is from Catholic Christianity.  The effort is much hindered, not by any reluctance on the part of the Conciliar Church, but by the unwillingness of non-Catholic sects; as has been said before, they have not been infected with the "spirit of Vatican II."

    Our self-exculpator will insist:  But I cannot help it if these things are going on in the Catholic Church.  There has never been a time when objectionable things were not occuring in the Church.  Ordinary people like me have never had to take the blame for things which were beyond their responsibility or control.

    We answer:  Yes, that has always been the case with the Catholic Church and probably always will be.  But the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, and you are a member of the former.  It cannot be said too vehemently that the Conciliar Church permits and promotes its wickedness quite deliberately.  It does so because it was established for this very purpose, just as certainly as the Communist Party was established to destroy governments by whatever means would be deemed workable, and to establish a world socialist dictatorship.

    Here we get to the heart of the matter.  The Second Vatican Council was a part of the World ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic Revolution, and all that is done by the Conciliar Church is in fulfillment of its pre-determined program.  What is now happening in the Conciliar Church is not a phase of a genuine and well-intentioned reform within the Catholic Church.  Nor is this only an expectable period of adjustment, which (so they say) the Church must go through, such as has occurred after all the great ecuмenical councils.  This is just another falsehood put forth to deceive the laity.  The deceivers will say this kind of thing to laypeople and expect them to believe it, which most of them do.  The Conciliar Establishment has been erected on misrepresentation, like all heretical sects, and can only continue as long as the people go along with it, which they are doing to their perdition.

    No, as one beholds the sacrilege of the Novus Ordo Missae, Communion in the Hand, the hemorrhage of nullifications of marriages, the preaching of socialism and Marxist-Leninism, the falsification of the Church's history, the glorification of the heresiarchs of the past, rampant immorality and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity among the clergy, the teaching of Protestantism, Judaism, Modernism, and Humanism in seminaries and other schools, the abandonment of the children to government school systems, the indifference to attacks upon the Church from its enemies, one must convince oneself that all this is going on because it was intended by those who set up the Conciliar Church, and it continues because those who control it want it to.  How do we know this?  We know it by the fact that those who have authority in the Church are either permitting it, or they are actively engaged in seeing that it happens.  They continue to appoint bishops who will either certainly permit, or will positively promote such things; and all the while they will silence and demote those who raise their voices against them.  We are speaking of the Pope and the Curia. 

    But, it will be objected, you have not proved that the Conciliar Church was set up to bring about these scandals, only that those in authority are themselves dewy-eyed Liberals, who are so concerned that someone suffer the slightest offense, that they do not have the heart or the stomach to impose discipline.

    We answer that those of whom we are speaking, the hierarchs of the Conciliar Establishment, make it clear that what is happening rejoices their hearts, because what is happening is in perfect accord with their Masonic philosophy.  They hate the True Church; they do not believe the traditional doctrine of Catholicity; they are repelled by the traditional code of morality; they have no reverence for the True Mass, nor faith in the power of the Sacraments, nor fear of divine chastisement.  In a word, they are confirmed Liberals, committed Freemasons, entrenched Modernists, explicit Marxists, avowed Hegelians, and pseudo-Catholics:  All of which makes them co-conspirators, the enemies of the Church and of your soul.

    Now, wait a minute!, comes the rejoinder.  Are you trying to tell me that every Liberal-leaning priest is actively engaged in a conspiracy to destroy the Catholic Church, and to establish a world counter-church?

    No, we do not speak of those pathetic dupes.  We speak of those who control the Conciliar Church, those who have the real power, those who appoint and promote, those who attend the important meetings.  If you wish to know their names, call your chancery office and ask who has authority over the Church, and who are in charge of its Congregations.

    And are you telling me that because you imagine the existence of some shadowy conspiracy in the upper echelons of the Catholic,--er, pardon me, the Conciliar Church, that I am part of this conspiracy, because I go to the New Mass every Sunday, and sit there to fulfill my religious obligation.  Now, c'mon!

    Let us keep things properly separate.  You are a part of this conspiracy against the Church, because you have discontinued to believe the true Faith and now assent to everything which is being done to destroy the Church.  You make your assent by continuing to go to your parish church, which is no longer Catholic, and you support it with your contributions.  And the purpose of its existence is to be a substitute for the Catholic Church, in your life, and that of all other Catholics.  You continue to attend the New Mass, which is the chief instrument whereby the Conciliar apparatus has subverted, and continues to subvert, the faith of its attendants.  The fact that you attend this, which anyone can easily observe is not the True Mass is proof enough that you no longer have the true Faith, and that you are a Catholic in name only.  You persist in trying to evade the responsibility for your own actions.  A truly Catholic Pope would never command you to participate in such a sacrilege.  A truly Catholic bishop would never allow such a thing in his diocese.  A truly Catholic priest would never officiate at such a travesty.  And a true Catholic would not be irreverent or stupid enough to be present at such a thing.  And in so far as you are doing what they tell you to do, you are a part of the conspiracy we are speaking of here.  Our Lord would say, "He that is not with Me, is against Me." (Mt. 12:30).  They are against Me, and you are with them.  It is as simple as that.  You are one with Simon Peter on Holy Thursday night.  Simon repented; you have yet to do so.   

    The issue here, obviously, is two-fold:  The first is what the Conciliar Church really is: the second is your moral responsibility.  One wonders what the Conciliarists would have to do, before you would realize what it is you belong to?  One wonders also, what you think the Catholic faith is, that you take no responsibility for your own conduct, nor even, evidently, for your own whereabouts!  Do you really think that the people who continued to attend the Church of Wittenburg were guiltless, or unresponsible, while Martin Luther made it the first Protestant church?--not that they were accountable for what he did.  Was Luther's sin or theirs any greater after the Church had condemned it than before?

    You ought to know that the Conciliarists are not going to tell you that you are no longer a Catholic, that they are reshaping (have re-shaped) the Church for their own purposes, that they really do not believe anything of Christianity.  As a matter of fact, in their writings, in their public pronouncements, and by their actions, they do make their intentions perfectly clear, but you make a virtue out of stupidly refusing to hear what they are saying.  The conspiracy, of course, is quite open; very ordinary people can see it, cannot help seeing it.  This is why you, Mr. Amoeba, are responsible for seeing nothing, and imagining that you have no responsibility to question anything, or do anything.  You, to be sure, are exactly the kind of lump they delight in and make jokes about.  Because of you, their momentous task is a child's game.
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    Offline ora pro me

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    « Reply #3 on: April 25, 2011, 06:09:07 PM »
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  • I've often wondered if that the NO church gives parishioners the traditional Latin Mass in order to keep parishioners from leaving and keep the $$ in the parish.  :idea: That brings me to the next thing that I sometimes wonder: do Catholics who prefer the traditional Latin Mass tithe more?  

    BTW, I don't expect anyone to have the answers to my 2 wonderings.   :scratchchin:

    Offline Darcy

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    « Reply #4 on: April 26, 2011, 12:20:43 AM »
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  • Is the Mass the Novus Ordo Missae just said in Latin?
    Then its no mass at all.

    Start to talk more to the other trad attendees. Eventually the topics you are concerned about will come up. I would suspect that the church is making it difficult for you to congregate afterwards because they don't want you getting any ideas.


    Offline jhfromsf68

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    « Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 04:45:02 AM »
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  • Hi Darcy,

    This is a Traditional pre Vatican ll Latin mass. It shares the church with the novus ordo mass. There is coffee and refressments downstairs after mass, so there is socializing going on. I'm pretty shy, so I don't know how easy it will be for me to bring up these issues with parishioners.

    I'm going to call the closest sspx chapel this week and see if they know of anyone who lives in my city who I could car pool with to mass Sunday morning . Please pray for me that I will be able to work something out!

    Thanks  :pray:

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #6 on: April 26, 2011, 07:20:24 AM »
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  • I have experienced one of these dual-rite parishes in Indianapolis (Holy Rosary).  I found the atmosphere untenable.  Though the parish was saved from financial ruin by the Traditional Latin Mass Apostolate, the "old-guard" did not like the "Latins", as they called the people who go to the traditional Mass.

    Though sermons were generally sound (I don't ever remember hearing heresy in the sermons), there were other problems such as the literature available on the pamphlet racks, announcements that were inimical to the faith, religious education required by the parish that was strictly New Church doctrine, and other problems.

    Never mind the lesson that dual rite parishes give to the children that the traditional Mass is merely a matter of preference.  No matter how much one tries to teach his children that this is not so, the children know that you are tolerant of the Novus Ordo and, because the two rites share one tabernacle, you must believe the Novus Ordo is acceptable.  There's simply no way around it.

    If you can, find an SSPX, CMRI, or independent chapel, by all means, go there rather than continue in a place that, by its nature, leads to indifferentism.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #7 on: April 26, 2011, 08:20:09 AM »
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  • Consider also that you may only be receiving bread, depending on what is in the Tabernacle and who consecrated it.
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline umblehay anmay

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    « Reply #8 on: April 26, 2011, 11:01:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: jhfromsf68
    :thinking:Hi everyone.....


    ....What I'm having a problem with is practicing the traditional faith in a novus ordo environment . It feels like something hybrid is going on. Whenever I'm trying pray and unite myself with our lord, something happens that disturbs my soul, like the priest jumping into the pulpit right after mass and talking about John Paul ll. Also the they have a novus ordo altar that wheel out after the traditional mass to put in front of the traditional high altar. This bothers me because I'm kneeling there in the pew trying to give my thanksgiving after mass and I'm forced to watch the altar boys re novus ordo the sacturery.....


    1 Machabees 1:57
    On the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred and forty-fifth year, king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God, and they built altars throughout all the cities of Juda round about:
     
    1 Machabees 1:62
    And on the five and twentieth day of the month they sacrificed upon the altar of the idol that was over against the altar of God.
     

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 11:23:32 AM »
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  • Attending a TLM at a NO parish can often be troublesome. I've attended TLMs at NO parishes. Two of them were very beautiful, the other three were hybrids. I recommend finding an SSPX, FSSP, CMRI, or independant chapel. There are also three US parishes that broadcast Mass live online. You can watch these Masses and make a spiritual Communion which gives you just as many graces.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Online Stubborn

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    « Reply #10 on: April 26, 2011, 12:42:58 PM »
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  • Isn't the Church where the Holy Sacrifice is celebrated supposed to be consecrated so as to be a spotless place where the clean oblation is performed?

    If that is so, then before the TLM is celebrated in the same place that the NO was said - the building must be consecrated - yes or no?

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Santo Subito

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    « Reply #11 on: April 27, 2011, 07:46:42 PM »
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  • jhfromsf68,

    I am glad that you are searching for answers and that you are open to suggestions regarding your situation. I think that the root of your discomfort has to do with your perception that there is something called the "Traditional Faith" as opposed to a "Novus Ordo" environment. I truly believe this is the devil trying to steal your peace. In reality there is only one Catholic Faith and only one Catholic Church. The Venerable John Paul II was a holy Pope of the Church and thus there is nothing to get upset over regarding this priest. The Church has chosen to beatify this Pope. These are decisions of the Church and it is our job to be obedient to the Church's formal decisions and decrees.

    There is only one Roman Rite with two forms: Extraordinary and Ordinary. It is absolutely normal to have two Catholic forms of Mass in a Catholic Church. It is a great thing to have a deep affection for the Extraordinary form of the Mass and a blessing that you have it in your parish. I would definitely keep assisting at Mass there and keep in full communion with the Holy See.

    Assisting at Masses of the SSPX is not recommended as one could imbibe a schismatic mentality by assisting there over time. Until they are brought into full communion with Rome, Society priests, unfortunately, say illicit Masses as they do not have the proper faculties from their Bishop.


    God Bless.

    Online Stubborn

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    « Reply #12 on: April 27, 2011, 08:00:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    jhfromsf68,

    I am glad that you are searching for answers and that you are open to suggestions regarding your situation. I think that the root of your discomfort has to do with your perception that there is something called the "Traditional Faith" as opposed to a "Novus Ordo" environment. I truly believe this is the devil trying to steal your peace. In reality there is only one Catholic Faith and only one Catholic Church. The Venerable John Paul II was a holy Pope of the Church and thus there is nothing to get upset over regarding this priest. The Church has chosen to beatify this Pope. These are decisions of the Church and it is our job to be obedient to the Church's formal decisions and decrees.

    There is only one Roman Rite with two forms: Extraordinary and Ordinary. It is absolutely normal to have two Catholic forms of Mass in a Catholic Church. It is a great thing to have a deep affection for the Extraordinary form of the Mass and a blessing that you have it in your parish. I would definitely keep assisting at Mass there and keep in full communion with the Holy See.

    Assisting at Masses of the SSPX is not recommended as one could imbibe a schismatic mentality by assisting there over time. Until they are brought into full communion with Rome, Society priests, unfortunately, say illicit Masses as they do not have the proper faculties from their Bishop.


    God Bless.



    ..............And that's why all should avoid the NO.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #13 on: April 27, 2011, 08:19:52 PM »
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  • Santo, you realize this is an SSPX forum, right? Please do us a favor and cut the "The SSPX isn't in full commuion with Rome" junk. At least they don't celebrate a "Mass" that was created by Freemasons (the Novus Ordo).
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #14 on: April 27, 2011, 08:26:02 PM »
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  • Santo

    Novus Ordo is just that, a new order, we are Catholics here.

    Novus Ordo is a perfect description of the lying teachers the Bible warns us of. "How the Spirit expressly says that in after times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of devils, speaking lies hypocritically, and having their conscience branded."   1 Timothy  
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