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Author Topic: Atila and the TFP  (Read 8173 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Atila and the TFP
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2019, 01:42:29 PM »
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  • Yes, to preserve the traditional priesthood is a big part of it. But also to preserve all of the traditional sacraments and Mass, as well as the Faith as it was practiced before that "Council."

    In this context, do you believe that +ABL's mission was valid and justifiable?

    I'm just asking because it seems that the followers of Plinio de Oliveira are not and have not been supporters of +ABL, from what I can tell. From what I've read (which hasn't been much) it would seem that TFP and Oliveira believed in a type of priesthood of the laity, and there haven't been very many priests associated with TFP. I don't know if they just believe that the priesthood is thoroughly corrupt and beyond hope, or if they (you as well?) believe that the Faith can be practiced by the laity without much interference by priests (except for the occasional consecration of hosts).

    I think +ABL's claim was as simple as the priesthood, which come the Sacraments.

    As practiced before the Council is debatable, if you have issues with the "indulted" 1962 missal and the 1950s' changes
    that Pacelli/Bugnini put into place, positioning for VII.

    I think +ABL was a valid practitioner of Catholic tradition, but there are many issues that lack consistency.
    For example his discussion of (4) Baptisms in his book, "Open Letter to Confused Catholics".

    Obviously, his apostolate was hijacked, but it is not clear when? 
    Did he really write the (4) Baptisms or was it inserted after he finished the original manuscript?

    Now, the SSPX is obviously being used and financed as the controlled opposition by the enemies of the Church.
    Did this conspiracy go all the way back to Bp. Fellay's consecration?   It's not yet clear.

    On Dr. Plineo, TFP and TIA, there is a long history which involved treachery and infiltration. TIA and TFP are enemies going on 18 years now. Were you aware of that? 

    Dr. Plineo was a gifted genius, who saw through the abuse and weaknesses of religious orders to fight the battle for the Faith. 
    He's been maligned and discredited by his enemies for their political reasons. 

    It is known that Dr. Plineo commissioned Atila to research the true root theology behind Vatican II.
    After much scholarship (to which Cera is clueless) he proved the VII docuмents were not Catholic.

    This discovery does much to discredit the SSPX's premise that dialogue with newChurch is plausible.  It is not.
    Therefore, TIA is an arch enemy of the neo-SSPX.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #31 on: April 02, 2019, 01:56:11 PM »
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  • I think +ABL's claim was as simple as the priesthood, which come the Sacraments.

    As practiced before the Council is debatable, if you have issues with the "indulted" 1962 missal and the 1950s' changes
    that Pacelli/Bugnini put into place, positioning for VII.

    I think +ABL was a valid practitioner of Catholic tradition, but there are many issues that lack consistency.
    For example his discussion of (4) Baptisms in his book, "Open Letter to Confused Catholics".

    Obviously, his apostolate was hijacked, but it is not clear when?  
    Did he really write the (4) Baptisms or was it inserted after he finished the original manuscript?

    Now, the SSPX is obviously being used and financed as the controlled opposition by the enemies of the Church.
    Did this conspiracy go all the way back to Bp. Fellay's consecration?   It's not yet clear.


    There's a lot to address in your post, but I'll start with +ABL. As far as the 1962 missal goes, +ABL allowed for the missal, even though it was not ideal. If you have an issue with it, that's fine. Did Plinio de Oliveira believe that the missal should not be used?

    I'm not aware of +ABL's 4 baptisms. Did Plinio de Oliveira have an issue with it?

    Yes, there are areas in the stances of +ABL that lack consistency. IMO, that happens in a Crisis. Unless, of course, you believe that Plinio de Oliveira was always consistent. But then he was just a layperson who developed his own apostolate. He was not responsible for a seminary or fraternity.

    Yes, the SSPX has now gone in a direction opposed to the intention of +ABL. We already know that.

    Question: what did Plinio de Oliveira think of +ABL and the SSPX while +ABL was still alive?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #32 on: April 02, 2019, 02:15:45 PM »
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  • On Dr. Plineo, TFP and TIA, there is a long history which involved treachery and infiltration. TIA and TFP are enemies going on 18 years now. Were you aware of that?  

    Dr. Plineo was a gifted genius, who saw through the abuse and weaknesses of religious orders to fight the battle for the Faith.  
    He's been maligned and discredited by his enemies for their political reasons.  

    It is known that Dr. Plineo commissioned Atila to research the true root theology behind Vatican II.
    After much scholarship (to which Cera is clueless) he proved the VII docuмents were not Catholic.

    This discovery does much to discredit the SSPX's premise that dialogue with newChurch is plausible.  It is not.
    Therefore, TIA is an arch enemy of the neo-SSPX.

    I'd like to address the second part of your post. Yes, I know that there are issues between TIA and TFP. Do you believe that it is because TFP doesn't like Atila's research into Vatican ll? Or something like that?

    It would seem that you believe that the SSPX considers TIA to be an arch enemy because TIA believes that dialogue with NewChurch is not plausible due to Vatican ll. Would that be right? I'm surprised that the SSPX would consider TIA to be such an arch enemy. Is TIA really all that influential? I consider them to be a little group. But maybe they aren't so small. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #33 on: April 02, 2019, 06:17:33 PM »
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  • TIA followers are told that Atila was kicked out of TFP because of a book he wrote.
    The truth is that in 1996 a book which exposed TFP as a cult made it a good time for Atila to leave and come to the U.S. and start TIA, pretending he had "broken" with TFP.
    The book is not available in English, but these excerpts are:

    TIA 1996 Expose
    Rimini 1996 Book exposing TFP (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?

    "During its 23rd plenary assembly, the Council of Brazilian bishops approved a note concerning the 'Brazilian Society for the Defence of Tradition, Family and Property', advising Catholics not to join the above mentioned Society […]. Its esoteric character, its religious fanaticism, the personality cult of the founder and of his mother, the abuse of the name of the Virgin Mary […] can absolutely not be approved of by the Church" 
      (Osservatore Romano, July 7, 1985, p. 12, n. 408, weekly Spanish edition quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, front piece)

    "TFP is a heretical sect since, although they do not say so in words or in writing, lives and acts according to a principle which undermines the very basis of all true Christianity, that is the Catholic church".
     (Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 6)
     
     "Plants will bleed; there will be a fight between angels and demons, and the TFP militants, surrounded and helped by angels, will become the instruments of conversion or condemnation. They will then lead public campaigns to denounce evildoers. Then the good, after having been converted, will gather around TFP".
     (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 35)
     

    The cult of Mary, in T.F.P., revolves largely around a statue of the Virgin of Fatima which supposedly wept in New Orleans, before being bought by Doctor Plinio, which the organization calls the "Holy Statue", and which Plinio claimed used to provide him with precious information on the world situation (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 31).       

    "Virtually every meeting with Doctor Plinio revolves around the 'bagarre'. Generally, whenever he speaks of the coming cataclysm, his words are drowned out by frantic applause from those present. All the militants stand up and shout three times, as loudly as possible, 'Tradition-Family-Property-Bagarre". This triple slogan often finishes with a triple cry "Plinio"!!"
     (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 33)

    "This must not come as a surprise; since you belong to TFP, you will be treated as if you belonged to a cult, by your very parents and friends! It will be terrible, and it will be hard indeed to stay faithful."
      (Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 38)

    Plinio's denial of the future role of priests - and the exclusion in the present of priests from all the more secret aspects of the group - led Monsignor Castro de Mayer, for decades Plinio's patron among the Brazilian bishops, to state:
        "TFP is a heretical sect since, although they do not say so in words or in writing, lives and acts according to a principle which undermines the very basis of all true Christianity, that is the Catholic church".
      (Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 6)
                   
    dedicated to Dona Lucilia, the mother of Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira:

    Lady Lucilia, pray for us 
    Mother of Mister Doctor Plinio, pray for us 
    Mother of the Doctor of the Church, pray for us 
    Mother of our Father, pray for us 
    Mother of the Unspeakable, pray for us 
    Mother of all of us, pray for us 
    Mother of the coming centuries, pray for us 
    Mother of the Axiological Principle, pray for us 
    Mother of the Temperament of Synthesis, pray for us 
    Mother of all purity, pray for us 
    Mother of the Trans-sphere, pray for us 
    Mother of Seriousness, pray for us 
    Mother of the Counter-Revolution, pray for us 
    Restorer of Temperaments, pray for us 
    Source of Light, pray for us 
    Procreator of Innocence, pray for us 
    Preserver of Innocence, pray for us 
    Consoler of Mister Doctor Plinio, pray for us 
    Mediator of the Grand Retour, pray for us 
    Mediator of all our graces, pray for us 
    Dawn of the Kingdom of Mary, pray for us 
    Lady Lucilia of the smile, pray for us 
    Lady Lucilia of Flashes*, pray for us 
    Most beautiful flower of all, pray for us 
    Our refuge, pray for us 
    Our consoler, pray for us 
    Our help in the Bagarre, pray for us 
    Reason of our perseverance, pray for us 
    Vase of logic, pray for us 
    Vase of metaphysics, pray for us 
    Martyr of isolation, pray for us 
    Queen of serene suffering, pray for us 
    Queen of loveliness, pray for us 
    Queen of serenity, pray for us 
    Lady Lucilia, our Mother and Lady, help us 
    Lady Lucilia, our greatest mediator before the Virgin, help us 

    (quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, pp. 70-71)       

    "Very often, after having spoken of his youth, Doctor Plinio speaks about his childhood, bringing back very precise memories of when he was three or four. He says that on the day of his baptism, the bells started ringing by themselves, without any natural explanation. He very soon was able to judge his parents: his father, Dr Joâo Paulo Corrêa de Oliveira, an unbelieving liberal; his mother, a woman who was always perfect. He very early realised the deep difference between himself, his cousins, and his friends, and started hurling invectives against them, accusing them of not being counter-revolutionary. During a trip to France, when he was about 4 or 5, he went to the puppet theatre at the Luxembourg gardens, in Paris. Struck by the anticlericalism of the puppet, he jumped up on his chair and, lifting an accusing finger, attacked the puppet and defended the Catholic religion. He dedicated himself to the Virgin as soon as he achieved the age of reason, and devoted himself to the Counter-Revolution. Soon after, having seen a book about Charlemagne, he made his parents buy it, thus discovering his first model."
     (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, pp. 56-7)
     



    One of Plinio's prophecies has definitely not come true: he claimed he would personally crown the Virgin with a crown currently possessed by TFP in Brazil (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 61).

    One interesting consequence of this future Kingdom will be that priests will no longer be needed; at least according to the former TFP followers, this is the real meaning of Plinio's following statement:
        "The Kingdom of Mary will therefore be a time when the union of souls with the Virgin will reach an intensity without any precedent in history, of course with individual exceptions. What form will this supreme union take? I know of no more perfect means of implementing this union than the sacred slavery to the Virgin, as taught by Saint Louis Grignion de Montfort [more on him later] in his Treatise on True Devotion to Mary."
     ("La devozione mariana e l'apostolato contro-rivoluzionario", in Cristianità, nov.- dic. 1995, p. 15.)
     
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #34 on: April 03, 2019, 01:30:45 PM »
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  • Defenders of Plinio and Atila? I hear only crickets.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #35 on: April 03, 2019, 01:46:53 PM »
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  • I'd like to address the second part of your post. Yes, I know that there are issues between TIA and TFP. Do you believe that it is because TFP doesn't like Atila's research into Vatican ll? Or something like that?

    It would seem that you believe that the SSPX considers TIA to be an arch enemy because TIA believes that dialogue with NewChurch is not plausible due to Vatican ll. Would that be right? I'm surprised that the SSPX would consider TIA to be such an arch enemy. Is TIA really all that influential? I consider them to be a little group. But maybe they aren't so small.
    Meg,

    Sorry for the late response.

    I'm not positive what Plineo thought of the SSPX?
    However, the SSPX took a position against him.  It can be found in Dr. White's book the "Mouth of the Dragon".

    In it, Dr. White explains how Bp. Castro Mayer distanced himself from TFP because Plineo would not let the priests lead the movement.  I bought this explanation for some time, but later came to realize Plineo's insistence on lay run "Catholic Action" was correct.

    The examples of how Pope Pius XI was tricked into shutting down Action Francaise in the 1930s is one.
    The ʝʊdɛօ-masonics loved this. The pope neutralized his own forces.

    But if you look at how the SSPX became hijacked and are now misleading the faithful, Plinoe was right.

    The priestly orders operate under obedience and are always conflicted when it comes to action.
    The can counsel, guide and assist the laity with the Sacraments, but it is not their position to lead them in the battle.



    Here's his bio from TIA:

    Biography of Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
    A Life Dedicated to Combat
     
    Atila Sinke Guimarães
    Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira (1908-1995) was born into two traditional Brazilian families, his mother’s family from São Paulo – Ribeiro dos Santos – and his father’s from Pernambuco – Corrêa de Oliveira. The former was known for its social distinction, the latter for its intelligence and oratory skills. Plinio inherited the characteristics of both families.



    When young, Plinio was the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil
    After being formed in the Jesuit school of São Paulo and receiving a degree in Law, he entered the Catholic Movement and became the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil. The force of this Movement was such that in 1934 it elected Plinio, at age 24, to the National Congress, making him not only the country’s youngest representative, but also the one who received the most votes. In the House he fought to defend the civil rights of the Church and to pass laws, which for a long time upheld Catholic principles and institutions in the country.

    Subsequent to his term in the House, he earned a chair in History of Civilization at the Law Faculty of São Paulo and another in Modern and Contemporary History at the Catholic Pontifical University, also in São Paulo.

    In 1933, he was asked by the Cardinal of São Paulo to direct the Archdiocesan weekly journal O Legionário (The Legionary). For many years he was its editor and gathered around him a group of distinguished writers who followed him on a lifetime journey. From a simple Archdiocesan bulletin the paper was transformed in the late ‘30s and ‘40s into the most influential Catholic organ of the country.

    The writers of O Legionário became famous for their pugnacious stand against Communism, nαzιsm and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, as well as for defending Christian Civilization and championing a culture coherent with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. In the religious sphere, they combated the nascent Progressivism, which was rising from the ashes of Modernism with the same poison, but new tactics, higher ambitions and a more prudent posturing.



    Fr. Castro Mayer alongside Prof. Plinio and the Legionário team of writers

    Those writers considered themselves continuers of the ultramontane movement of the 19th century in Europe. Among others, two priests joined the group: Fr. Geraldo Sigaud and Fr. Antônio de Castro Mayer.

    In 1940, Prof. Plinio was chosen to be president of Catholic Action in São Paulo. From this post, he carefully watched the insidious progressivist infiltration into the religious milieu. By 1943 he fully realized its maneuvers and wrote a book denouncing its strategy – In Defense of the Catholic Action (Em Defesa da Ação Católica). Later he described the launching of that book as a kamikaze operation: he delayed the influence of Progressivism in Brazil, but blew up his own career along with the target.

    Indeed, the Cardinal of São Paulo who favored his work died and, after the short term of another, a progressivist took his place in 1944. Prof. Plinio lost the presidency of Catholic Action and the direction of O Legionário. A phase of persecution and ostracism began.

    He and the two mentioned priests agreed to continue the Counter-Revolution despite the consequences. Sometime later, Fr. Sigaud was made Bishop, followed by Fr. Castro Mayer. The union of the three was so strong that each Bishop adopted in his coat-of-arms the rampant lion Prof. Plinio had chosen to symbolize his fight.

    A new monthly paper, edited and published in São Paulo with the approval of Castro Mayer, now Bishop of Campos, took the name Catolicismo (1951) and recommenced the public fight. The Catolicismo group attracted younger persons, who drew in yet others. With this growing movement, in 1960 he founded the Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property – the TFP.

    Published in 1959 Revolution and Counter-Revolution became the handbook for the TFPs everywhere
    To provide guidelines for that group, in 1959 Prof. Plinio wrote Revolution and Counter-Revolution – R-CR, which became his masterpiece. In it he analyzed the Revolution’s historical process that started in the Middle Ages. The Renaissance and Humanism were its first manifestations; later it generated Protestantism, the French Revolution and Communism.

    He also described its later phases: namely, the Fourth Revolution (the Cultural Revolution of the ‘60s), which tends toward Tribalism and a Pentecostal religion; the metamorphosis of Communism after the dissolution of the USSR; the infiltration of Progressivism in the Church, which changed the focus of the R-CR fight. Now, it had to be fought inside the Church.

    The ideals of R-CR extended to other countries. In 1995, at his death, there were TFPs and similar organizations in 26 countries.

    In the early ‘60s, Brazil was threatened by Communism, supported by Progressivism in the Church. Both were proponents of a socialist land reform to destabilize farmers, the backbone of the country's economy. With economist Mendonça de Freitas, Prof. Plinio wrote a book against land reform and invited the Bishops to sign it: Agrarian Reform – a Question of Conscience (1963). A success, the book became the pivot for an enormous public reaction against Communism. An undesired byproduct of this general dissatisfaction was a military coup that deposed the brazenly red president-to-be and installed a socialist dictatorship in the country.

    Prof. Plinio leaves Rome when he realizes he has done all he could at the Council
    In 1959, John XXIII announced his intention to convene a Council. Prof. Plinio warned Archbishop Sigaud and Bishop Mayer that they should study and prepare themselves intensively or they would be defeated by the progressivists at the Council. Unfortunately, they did not heed his advice.

    Notwithstanding, Prof. Plinio, along with about 20 laymen, accompanied the Bishops to Rome for the First Session with the hope that they would have a positive influence. With these laymen he organized two petitions, signed by hundreds of Bishops: one asking the Council to condemn Communism; the other asking the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as commanded in Fatima.

    He sought out the Bishops of Communism-dominated countries asking them to affirm that the Church-Communism coexistence is against Catholic doctrine. Ukrainian Archbishop Ivan Bucko agreed to state this at the Council. Prof. Plinio wrote an intervention for him, but Msgr. Bucko changed his mind and did not address the topic in the Council. In May 1964, Prof. Plinio published that study: The Church and the Communist State: The Impossible Coexistence.

    As the first session came to its end, Prof. Plinio realized that the progressivists were in complete control and suggested that the two Brazilian Bishops unmask their maneuvers. He proposed that they solemnly walk from the door of St. Peter’s Basilica to the main table in the conciliar hall, passing by the 2,300 Bishops assembled there. Then, before the whole assembly, they should expose the progressivist agenda for the Council and state that they were leaving in protest. Outside the doors, journalists would be waiting to interview them and spread the news. This dramatic rupture was meant to abort the entire spectacle of Vatican II. Unfortunately, the Bishops did not follow his advice.

    He did not return to the Council, which followed that progressivist path until its end.

    In 1965, Prof. Plinio wrote a book denouncing the popular new dialogue with communists: Unperceived Ideological Transshipment and Dialogue. Although the approach of the study was temporal, it also applied to the religious dialogue being promoted by John XXIII and Paul VI insofar as dialogue was used not to convert heretics but to make them comfortable in their errors.

    After the Council’s closing, he received in Brazil the two returning Bishops. They had signed all its docuмents and told him, [paraphrasing]: “Now, we need to work on our group so they will accept the Council.” Prof. Plinio opposed the proposition, saying: “Your Excellencies can fry or cook the Council any way you want. I will never eat it.”

    Archbishop Sigaud tries to implement the Council - Prof. Plinio disagrees
    There was no rupture, but this divergence projected shadows on their decades-old relationship.

    Eventually, the two Bishops would break their agreement to stand together in the fight. Some years later Archbishop Sigaud distanced himself. He publicly supported the socialist military regime. His reason? “The military regime started the Reign of Mary predicted in Fatima”…

    In the mid ‘70s a lawsuit against the TFP called on Bishop Mayer to testify. He made a sworn statement that throughout more than 40 years of close collaboration he had never seen anything in TFP or in Prof. Plinio’s actions or thoughts that went against Catholic doctrine.

    However, in 1983, he took a public stand against Prof. Plinio. Why this change?

    In the late ‘70s, a certain Fr. Fernando Rifan – an expert in intrigue – was gaining the ear of Bishop Mayer. Rifan, who hated Prof. Plinio and the TFP, induced the Bishop to soften his position against Progressivism to the point that Bishop Mayer in some talks assumed the principles of John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. In Rome he was photographed holding hands with JPII. Consequently, his visits to São Paulo ceased.

    In the early ‘80s, a rancorous high-school teacher, Orlando Fedeli, left the TFP because he felt his talents were not sufficiently recognized. At his rupture he wrote three letters disclosing “evidence” that Prof. Plinio had transformed the TFP into “a cult to worship himself and his mother.” Soon after he left, he sold his story to one of the largest Brazilian newspapers with close ties to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ – O Estado de São Paulo – which started a boisterous defamatory campaign.

    Facing multiple defamatory campaigns with serenity and firmness
    Encouraged by Rifan, Fedeli consulted with Bishop Mayer about a litany that two naïve teenagers had made in honor of Prof. Plinio’s mother. As soon as that litany was discovered, it had been forbidden by Dr. Plinio, but Fedeli did not inform Bishop Mayer of this “detail.” He presented the litany as if it were a prayer commonly said throughout the TFP with Prof. Plinio’s approval. Bishop Mayer condemned the litany as going against Catholic doctrine. This was in 1983.

    This condemnation and Fedeli’s accusations were duly refuted and the docuмents were reviewed by famous theologians in Spain. They issued a verdict affirming the refutation to be sound and Bishop Mayer’s condemnation “poorly made and difficult to understand.” It judged that some of the litany’s ejaculations were “naïve, others ambiguous and yet others extravagant” and praised Prof. Plinio for having forbidden its recitation. But they considered it “exaggerated to label them as heterodox or blasphemous, not taking into consideration the relative nature of the language being used.” Bishop Mayer judged it prudent not to reply.

    The Brazilian TFP published 2,000 copies of that refutation and full-page newspaper ads to inform the public of this judgment favoring Prof. Plinio.

    In response, Fedeli went to Spain to try to bribe the principle theologian who made the review. He was duly shown out of the room. Fr. Rifan, who at the time was very close to the Society of St. Pius X, spread the same lies to this organization, which continues to propagate them among its priests and seminarians.

    This campaign is just one in a list of many defamatory offensives made against Prof. Plinio.

    The Brazilian TFP was also condemned at various times by the very progressivist Brazilian Bishops. Some of these condemnations were duly answered; others not, simply because they were too biased to be credible.

    Altogether Prof. Plinio published 15 books.

    A TFP street campaign celebrating the defeat of divorce
    He also spearheaded many petition drives carried out by the TFP including:
    • A petition against divorce in Brazil, 1966, 1 million signatures;
    • A request to Paul VI to stop the communist infiltration in the Church, 1968, 2 million signatures total in Brazil, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay.
    • An entreaty for the liberation and independence of Lithuania, 1990, 5.2 million signatures.
    It was Prof. Plinio who asked Arnaldo Xavier da Silveira to study Paul VI’s New Mass (1969) as well as the possibility of a heretic Pope. Silveira’s book was published in Portuguese (1972) and in French (1975). [An English version is available here]

    After Paul VI launched Liberation Theology in Medellin, Colombia (1968), Prof. Plinio made several campaigns against this new thrust of communist infiltration in the Church.

    In 1974 he wrote a position of resistance against the Vatican Ostpolitik, that is, its collaboration with the communist regimes. This Declaration of Resistance, which made him the pioneer of Catholic Resistance, was published in 21 newspapers in 10 countries.

    In 1982 he asked me to write and publish a collection analyzing Vatican II, which I did under his guidance and encouragement.

    Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira was the Catholic giant who, for many decades, held Communism at bay in South America. He also held back the advance of Progressivism in the Church as much as he could.

    One aspect that official biographies of this Catholic thinker and man of action do not address is the moral and physical sufferings Prof. Plinio endured.

    In the mid ‘70s, seeing how worldly and lukewarm TFP members had become, he offered his life to Our Lady to redeem that situation. Some days later, on February 3, 1975, he was in a serious car accident, suffering a broken hand, arm, leg and hip as well as severe injuries to his eyelids, lips and teeth. These graves lesions demanded multiple surgeries, causing him enormous moral and physical sufferings. The arm, leg and hip surgeries had to be made twice, still without success. The effects of that accident remained with him to the end of his days, obliging him to rely on crutches or a wheelchair.

    A tragic car accident that won more
    20 years of fight for the TFPs
    This suffering bought 20 more years of life for the TFPs. Toward the end, however, he confided to some friends: “If I were not in a wheelchair, they would expel me from the TFP.” He was referring to the directors who in theory followed his orientation, but in practice moved the TFP to a position of indifference and mediocrity.

    When he was dying in the hospital in 1995, those directors lost no time in sending a letter to the Cardinal Primate of Brazil, committing the TFP not to speak publicly against Vatican II, the New Mass or the Pope.

    A few years after his death, a split among his followers over the question of authority took place. Today, one faction – which includes the American TFP – upholds that same agreement with the Vatican; the other completely adhered to the Conciliar Church. Many members of the latter became priests and have comfortable ecclesiastical careers.

    Sadly, both sides had become weary of the fight against Progressivism, had reduced Prof. Plinio to a museum artifact and merged – in different ways and degrees – with that same enemy against which Prof. Plinio had fought his entire life.

    With his symbol the rampant lion
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #36 on: April 03, 2019, 03:19:08 PM »
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  • Incredulous,

    Thanks for your response. You mentioned that if we look at how the SSPX has been hijacked and are now misleading the faithful, then Plineo was right. And you mentioned also that the priestly orders cannot lead the battle, due to being conflicted when it comes to action because of obedience. 

    I can understand that POV, and there s a certain logic in it; however, there have been a lot of divisions in the ranks of the TFP as well. There's nothing to say that priests must lead the battle - I think you're right about that. However, a priest who is properly formed in theology and has a good understanding of human nature will not allow himself, or will be less likely, to have himself put on a pedestal by the laity. That seems to be the main problem with TFP with regards to De Oliveira. 

    Another thing I notice is that there is very little hope for those who are in error, according to the dictates of TFP and De Oliveira. Everything is either good or evil, and we have to pick a side. But love and forgiveness of those who are in error don't seem to have a presence in that apostolate. None at all. For example, you'll notice that +W and others in the Resistance don't give up on the SSPX. They have hope, even though it is small. That's one of the endearing things about the Resistance. Do you know what I mean? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #37 on: April 03, 2019, 03:27:40 PM »
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  • Meg,
    TFP is a “heretical sect,” which pretends to be Catholic, but is actually an anti-Catholic and anti-clerical cult of personality which worships Plinio according to Antonio de Castro Mayer, Bishop of Campos, Brazil. The Bishop says “TFP lives and behaves in accord with a principle which fundamentally undermines the truth of Christianity, that is, of the Catholic Church.”

    The Bishop, who was for decades had been deluded by TFP to believe that they were Catholic, in this letter consoles a mother whose son lost his Catholic faith when he too became deluded b the TFP cult.

    The Bishop points out that it is a “ heretical subversion to habitually follow a lay person, ---therefore, not a member of the Hierarchy--- as the spokesman of orthodoxy. Thus, they do not look to what the Church says, what the Bishops say, rather what this or that one says.... Nor does it end there: this attitude------even if not openly avowed---actually positions the "leader" as the arbiter of orthodoxy, and is accompanied by a subtle but real mistrust of the hierarchy and of the clergy in general.”

    Rhis letter was published in the Campos daily, La Folha de Manhà in 1991; the original text, however, is dated 1984, two years after Bishop de Castro Mayer's break with TFP. It appeared in Le Sel de la Terre, [no. 28, Spring 1999], in an article entitled, "Docuмents sur la T.F.P".

    Dear XXXXX,
    I owe a response to your grieving letter of September 24, which, as the postmark indicates, you sent me on September 25.

    In this case, I can only offer the sole advice: pray, pray much, above all the Rosary or at least the five decades of the Rosary, asking the Virgin Mother, Mediatrix of all graces, to enlighten your son and make him see that TFP is an heretical sect because, in fact, although they do not say or write it, TFP lives and behaves in accord with a principle which fundamentally undermines the truth of Christianity, that is, of the Catholic Church.

    In fact, it is de fide that Jesus Christ founded His Church------destined to maintain on earth the true worship of God and to lead souls toward eternal salvation---as an unequal society, composed of two classes: one which governs, teaches and sanctifies, composed of members of the clergy, and the other---the faithful---who receive the teaching, are governed and sanctified. This is a de fide dogma.

    St. Pius X wrote that the Church is, in its very nature, an unequal society, meaning that it comprises two orders of persons: shepherds and flocks, those who belong to the various ranks of the Hierarachy and the faithful multitude. These two orders are so completely distinct that the Hierarchy alone has the right and authority to guide and govern the members to the Church's ends, while the duty of the faithful is that of allowing themselves to be governed and to obediently follow the way given by the governing class (The Encyclical, "Vehementer", February 11, 1906) [7].

    And the entire history of the Church, as can be seen in the New Testament, attests to this truth as a fundamental dogma of the Church's constitution. It was to the Apostles only that Jesus said: “Go and teach all nations”. Too, the Acts of the Apostles show us the life of the Church in the times following Jesus Christ. Because of this, it is an heretical subversion to habitually follow a lay person, ---therefore, not a member of the Hierarchy--- as the spokesman of orthodoxy. Thus, they do not look to what the Church says, what the Bishops say, rather what this or that one says.... Nor does it end there: this attitude------even if not openly avowed---actually positions the "leader" as the arbiter of orthodoxy, and is accompanied by a subtle but real mistrust of the hierarchy and of the clergy in general.

    There is a visceral anticlericalism in TFP: everything that comes from the clergy is prejudicially received. Basically, it holds that all priests are ignorant, not very zealous or interesting, and have other such qualities. Well, then, keeping in mind the divine Constitution of the Church which was instituted by Jesus Christ, TFP's habitual anti-clericalism, latent, makes it an heretical sect, and therefore, as I have said, is animated by a principle contrary to the dogma established by Jesus Christ in the constitution of His Church.
    Nevertheless, TFP had a healthy beginning. There was a certain evolution of the apostolate carried out by the bi-weekly newspaper of the Marian Congregation of St. Cecelia, titled, O Legionario. As a serious and well intentioned movement, it sought to strengthen the intellectual and religious formation of the members of that Congregation and, consequently, of the bi-weekly’s readers. It was influential throughout Brazil. That was the era of [its] obedience to Monsignors Duarte and Leme. I accompanied and approved its apostolate, also when it began to stray into an anticlerical spirit, which began by its consolidating its position and then reversing it by putting the clergy in tow behind a charismatic layman, with his monopoly on orthodoxy. Perhaps I gave it support beyond a licit point. I retracted it only when it became clear to me that my warnings were not being taken into consideration. They had become useless.

    It is just to observe that the straying of certain members of the hierarchy, ....explains the “TFPistas'" scandal, but it doesn't justify the positions they came to take. Even less so, those of their leader, Plinio.

    At this time, as I said at the beginning of this letter, the remedy is prayer. First, because without prayer nothing is obtained: “Ask,“ Our Lord says, “and you shall receive.” It is necessary to pray, because charismatic fervor produces a certain fanaticism: individuals become incapable of seeing objective reality, of perceiving even fundamental errors, because of this inversion of following a lay person instead of the legitimate Shepherds of the Holy Church. So much moreso when, as I have observed, members of the Hierarchy unfortunately and frequently utter words and take positions which any Catholic can see are dissonant from doctrine and from the guidance of the Church of the ages.....

    I ask Our Lord that he grant you, and your entire family, a holy and happy Christmas and many years filled with God's grace.
    I ask that you pray for me, Servant in Christ-Jesus,
    Antonio de Castro Mayer, Bishop Emeritus of Campos
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #38 on: April 03, 2019, 03:36:14 PM »
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  • Cera,

    The TFP and followers of De Oliveira aren't the first to have the problems you describe - and they won't be the last. We are prone to error due to original sin and pride. I think that the TFP want to do the right thing, but they have been taken down the wrong path. What can we do but try to be patient and listen? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #39 on: April 03, 2019, 04:33:00 PM »
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  • I do pray for the cult members of TFP/ TIA. In addition to prayer, it is also important to help others be aware of how dangerous they are.

    In addition to the fact that TFP is a “heretical sect,” which only pretends to be Catholic while undermining the Church, (according to Bishop Mayer in the article posted above) we also know that:

    quote:
    TFP has also faced charges of cнιℓd тrαffιcking by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”

    Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause. According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church . . .

    This is from Fidelity magazine in its May 1989 issue cited here:
    https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #40 on: April 03, 2019, 08:57:51 PM »
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  • I do pray for the cult members of TFP/ TIA. In addition to prayer, it is also important to help others be aware of how dangerous they are.

    In addition to the fact that TFP is a “heretical sect,” which only pretends to be Catholic while undermining the Church, (according to Bishop Mayer in the article posted above) we also know that:

    quote:
    TFP has also faced charges of cнιℓd тrαffιcking by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”

    Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause. According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church . . .

    This is from Fidelity magazine in its May 1989 issue cited here:
    https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name

    Cera,

    cнιℓd тrαffιcking is very serious of course, and if they have really tried to obtain legal guardianship over minors, that's very serious also. There isn't anything remotely Catholic about that type of thing. It seems that the supposed fight against evil is a justification for things that are just plain wrong and illegal.

    I'm still learning about TFP and Plineo. One thing I came across is a connection between TFP and CESNUR. Evidently, the president of CESNUR was once a TFP member. He may still be. He's also a freemason and the president of the vampire society in Italy. I did a lot of research on CESNUR years ago, when I realized that Damian Thompson, who writes for the Catholic Herald in the UK, is (or was) a board member of CESNUR. CESNUR is affiliated with the London School of Economics, and the group hosts a lot of conferences there. They promote Gnosticism, new age cults and even Satanism. They never met a cult that they didn't like. They are bad news. But maybe they don't have anything to do with TFP these days.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #41 on: April 04, 2019, 01:31:00 AM »
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  • I was wondering what is CESNUR: https://www.cesnur.org/
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #42 on: April 04, 2019, 03:35:41 PM »
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  • Cera,

    cнιℓd тrαffιcking is very serious of course, and if they have really tried to obtain legal guardianship over minors, that's very serious also. There isn't anything remotely Catholic about that type of thing. It seems that the supposed fight against evil is a justification for things that are just plain wrong and illegal.

    I'm still learning about TFP and Plineo. One thing I came across is a connection between TFP and CESNUR. Evidently, the president of CESNUR was once a TFP member. He may still be. He's also a freemason and the president of the vampire society in Italy. I did a lot of research on CESNUR years ago, when I realized that Damian Thompson, who writes for the Catholic Herald in the UK, is (or was) a board member of CESNUR. CESNUR is affiliated with the London School of Economics, and the group hosts a lot of conferences there. They promote Gnosticism, new age cults and even Satanism. They never met a cult that they didn't like. They are bad news. But maybe they don't have anything to do with TFP these days.
    Wow. Meg, you are a super researcher. I suspected a Freemasonic connection and have found interesting leads but not anything docuмented. (i.e. Plinio's maternal uncle was the head of the Grand Orient Lodge in Brazil.) I have seen the CESNUR website and it's quite extensive. Thank you so much for the lead; I will follow this up.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #43 on: April 04, 2019, 03:43:07 PM »
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  • I was wondering what is CESNUR: https://www.cesnur.org/
    The group supports cults, in that it opposes those who try to get family members out of cults.


    CESNUR describes itself as "an international network of associations of scholars working in the field of new religious movements." It has gained a reputation for being mostly uncritical and, in fact, supportive of movements considered to be cults by secular anticult- and/or Christian countercult professionals.
    Indeed, co-founded by - among others - Massimo Introvigne (Managing Director), J. Gordon Melton, and Eileen Barker, CESNUR is seen by many as an organization of cult apologists. At the very least, it has an anti-anticult stance - meaning that it opposes the doctrines, methods and goals of anti-cult and counter-cult organizations. Some of CESNUR's principals have testified in court on behalf of cults, presented papers supportive of such movements, and have even accepted payments or other benefits from these groups.http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c10.html
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #44 on: April 04, 2019, 03:51:15 PM »
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  • This website is the one I was thinking of. It is about Censur, and is written by a former member of the Italian branch of TFP. He realized it is a cult, escaped and now has researched the tentacles of this group of cult organizations. His background is here:
    http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/miggb.htm

    He says:
    [size=+0]Massimo Introvigne is a leader of the radical right-wing "counter-revolutionary" movement called Alleanza Cattolica - the Italian "sister" of the Brazilian cult called  Tradition, Family and Property   (TFP). However, what is most important is that  the material we published showed how CESNUR's "research" is carried out in such a way as to delierately promote the policies and ideological goals of this movement. . .[/size]

    [size=+0][size=+0]Massimo Introvigne first replied by accusing us of being "agents of the Belgian Parliament", then by launching an unbelievable campaign on Usenet  Newsgroups involving insults, obscenities and forged posts. Shortly after, he threatened our  provider into closing down our website.[/size][/size]


    [size=+0]http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/eng.htm[/size]

    [size=+0]Hmm. Calling someone with whom you disagree an "agent." Why does that sound so familiar?[/size]
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary