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Author Topic: Atila and the TFP  (Read 8181 times)

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Offline Markus

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Re: Atila and the TFP
« Reply #105 on: May 28, 2019, 10:43:42 PM »
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  • Having read this purported "refutation" it's clear that it is merely more of the same obfuscation typical of TFP/TIA.
    Nowhere is the key point addressed: that Atila laid on the floor in front of Plinio, who put his foot on Atila's neck, and Atila (in a mockery of Louis de Montfort's consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary) swore his allegiance to Plinio, making himself a slave to Plinio and taking a slave name.
    Disgusting and more importantly NOT Catholic, once again affirming what Bishop Mayer said of TFP, calling them an anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretic sect.
    I find it incredibly hard to believe you read the refutation.
    If you read it, surely you would have more to say than just repeating what you've already been saying for the last two months. 
    Also, there are still two more books in the collection that address the points you are so adamant about. According to TIA, the next will be available shortly. 


    Offline CestMoiJeanneMarie

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #106 on: May 29, 2019, 04:20:12 PM »
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  • Let’s see what excuse Cera comes up with this time. As Incredulous pointed out in another thread, the noose is tightening around their necks, the noose that they themselves set up. They cannot go against truth and facts.


    Offline Doce Me

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #107 on: May 30, 2019, 01:50:02 AM »
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  • I'm new here, and not too knowledgeable about TIA, but I had a couple of comments based on scanning the file from TIA that Markus linked to:

    Quote
    Official refutation: https://traditioninaction.org/Library/texts/A_001_ServCar.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1rRuucbL9eSBU5Sb2qBD8g_aAUI6xUNyaCCahfs7k_G4FCxta3sRrLeT4
    Athough Atila explicitly denies "de facto" slavery to Plinio here, he sure shows extreme adulation:


    Quote
    ...
    From all this it was concluded that it could not be truthfully
    said that slavery to Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira exists de facto in the TFP.

    This is for various reasons:

    1. Because any temporal slavery is absolutely unthinkable;

    2. Because the disciples who made the vow of obedience viewed
    their vow as laymen in the Church generally consider it - without special reference to religious "slavery;

    3. Because the only ones who made a consecration as "slaves"
    to the Blessed Virgin with him as intermediary did not confer to him de facto any greater power than that which a director has over those he directs. In addition to this, such a consecration lost its effectiveness in the family of souls of the TFP.

    Having said this, it would be a show of bad faith and a flagrant injustice to manipulate the words "slavery" and "slave" to give the understanding that the family of souls of the TFP would have returned to those dark pagan times when it was not considered that every man is made in the image and likeness of God and that all that one does for the most humble who occupies the lowest places on the social scale is the same as if one does it for Christ Our Lord Himself (Mt. 25:45).

    Having closed this work with the idea that helping the lesser
    is the glory of the greater and the outstanding characteristic of the harmony of Christian Civilization, it is impossible for the one who writes this work not to relate this idea to all the assistance that the great founder of the family of souls of the TFP, Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, gives to each one of those whom the grace has called to participate in his most high and most ardent vocation, even though they be weak and small. How many weaknesses sustained by his firm hand, how many defects cured by his efficacious remedies, how many shortcomings transcended by his continuous support, how many thirsts for good and justice satiated by limpid waters of confidence, how much hunger for truth filled at the banquet table of orthodoxy!

    How can one consider so many favors without returning thanks?
    And how to return thanks without asking pardon for that which was not done?

    But, over and above the expressions of gratitude and the par
    dons, a joy fills the spirit of the members of the family of souls of the TFP: It is the joy that, at least in one, Our Lady was duly served and glorified. It was in that one who, meriting to be the master of all, served all (1 Cor. 9:19) in order to be the true "slave" of She who was the "Slave of the Lord" (Luke 1:38). And serving all, he conquers all, because the epic grandeur of his vocation, humiliating himself even to the level of the smallness of each one, reveals in his souls such a dedication and meekness that it moves the good in those who still have even a Catholic fiber in their hearts.42 (42).

    To the founder of the family of souls of the TFP, to the di
    rector of the Counter-Revolution, to my father,43 to my master, to my lord, rendered here is the samll homage of one who should have served much more.

    Atila Sinke Guimarães São Paulo, September 1, 1984

    "To my master, to my lord" might be considered excessive homage to one who, however holy, is only a founder and a superior.

    [elsewhere in the docuмent] "...the TFP can consider Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira as a mediator between Our Lady and this forementioned family of souls".  That seems to be putting Plinio next in the ranking after Christ and Our Lady. Has this kind of honor been paid even to saintly founders and superiors (before they were even canonized!)?


    I'm not positive this is a fair comparison (I don't know enough about Plinio Correa de Oliveira) but this reminds me of the adulation that the priests of the Legion of Christ gave to their founder
    Marcial Maciel Degollado.  He was a real saint to them (I know someone in the order); and they were utterly stunned when he was exposed.
    Doce Me Veritatem (Teach me truth) - Mt. Saint Mary College motto

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #108 on: May 30, 2019, 04:58:48 AM »
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  • Any way you cut it, this is far too much spiritual obedience given to a member of the laity. Plinio was a very articulate and intelligent man to be sure, combined with a forceful personality. Perhaps too forceful! The Plinio "litany" may have been a mocking parody, but the more Atila reveals, the more I can see the underlying truth behind it. He may have held public office earlier in his career, but at the time of the TFP's founding he was neither a man of secular or religious authority. A distinguished man with a gift for language and many great insights? Certainly. As much of a scholar he may have been, this is way over the top for a man who had not taken vows himself:

    "the assistance that the great founder of the family of souls of the TFP, Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, gives to each one of those whom the grace has called to participate in his most high and most ardent vocation, even though they be weak and small. How many weaknesses sustained by his firm hand, how many defects cured by his efficacious remedies, how many shortcomings transcended by his continuous support, how many thirsts for good and justice satiated by limpid waters of confidence, how much hunger for truth filled at the banquet table of orthodoxy!"

    If he was accustomed to such overflowing praise in his lifetime, it's not hard to see how it could have warped his judgement.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Markus

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #109 on: May 30, 2019, 02:50:59 PM »
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  • Offline Doce Me

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #110 on: May 30, 2019, 06:38:31 PM »
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  • I'm sure.  :laugh1: :chef:
    Thank you for the friendly welcome - uh, was that what it was?

    I post frequently an another forum, but it doesn't use the same BBcodes/quoting mechanism. That's no reason to poke fun at my post.
    Doce Me Veritatem (Teach me truth) - Mt. Saint Mary College motto

    Offline Markus

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #111 on: May 30, 2019, 11:59:56 PM »
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  • Thank you for the friendly welcome - uh, was that what it was?

    I post frequently an another forum, but it doesn't use the same BBcodes/quoting mechanism. That's no reason to poke fun at my post.
    I find it suspicious your very first post was a polemic against Dr. Plinio and Atila... That is why I made my comment.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #112 on: May 31, 2019, 05:00:06 PM »
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  • I find it suspicious your very first post was a polemic against Dr. Plinio and Atila... That is why I made my comment.
    From the perspective of a cult-follower of TFP/TIA, it sounds like a "polemic" against your worshiped leader.
    To a normal person, it is an unbiased, rational analysis.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #113 on: May 31, 2019, 05:03:50 PM »
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  • Thank you for the friendly welcome - uh, was that what it was?

    I post frequently an another forum, but it doesn't use the same BBcodes/quoting mechanism. That's no reason to poke fun at my post.
    Sorry about the unwelcome you received here. You will soon learn that this forum has been infiltrated by what Bishop Mayer called the "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretical sect" called Tradition, Family and Property (TFP) in South America and a a spin off group, also anti-Catholic, anti-clerical and heretical, called Tradition in Action (TIA).
    Welcome to the forum.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #114 on: May 31, 2019, 05:07:11 PM »
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  • I'm new here, and not too knowledgeable about TIA, but I had a couple of comments based on scanning the file from TIA that Markus linked to:
    Athough Atila explicitly denies "de facto" slavery to Plinio here, he sure shows extreme adulation:


    "To my master, to my lord" might be considered excessive homage to one who, however holy, is only a founder and a superior.

    [elsewhere in the docuмent] "...the TFP can consider Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira as a mediator between Our Lady and this forementioned family of souls".  That seems to be putting Plinio next in the ranking after Christ and Our Lady. Has this kind of honor been paid even to saintly founders and superiors (before they were even canonized!)?


    I'm not positive this is a fair comparison (I don't know enough about Plinio Correa de Oliveira) but this reminds me of the adulation that the priests of the Legion of Christ gave to their founder
    Marcial Maciel Degollado.  He was a real saint to them (I know someone in the order); and they were utterly stunned when he was exposed.
    Astute observations. The tactics of TFP/TIA and their many other offshoots are a sophisticated refinement of the quite evil cult called Legioinairre's of Christ.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Doce Me

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #115 on: May 31, 2019, 08:04:17 PM »
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  • I find it suspicious your very first post was a polemic against Dr. Plinio and Atila... That is why I made my comment.
    I just stated my honest impression of what I read - as quoted directly from the docuмent you linked to. SOME post had to be the first one I made; I had no ulterior motive for you to be suspicious of for posting here in particular. :)

    FWIW: I don't have any problem with the title "Our Lady of Good Success", even though I DO got to the SSPX.  I understand that the title is used even independently from TIA. I have also met Marian Horvat when she gave a talk here and found her very intelligent.

    Right now I'm not planning to get deep into the argument here, either way.
    Doce Me Veritatem (Teach me truth) - Mt. Saint Mary College motto


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #116 on: May 31, 2019, 08:16:52 PM »
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  • Doce Me,

    You signed up for an account in 2011 but you just made your first post?

    Also, you profile shows you have 15 upvotes and 1 downvote. ?

    Not trying to attack you at all, just honest questions.

    Maybe there is a glitch or something.


    Offline Markus

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #117 on: May 31, 2019, 09:58:28 PM »
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  •  I have also met Marian Horvat when she gave a talk here and found her very intelligent.
    Very good. When did you meet Dr. Horvat?

    Offline Doce Me

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #118 on: May 31, 2019, 10:19:03 PM »
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  • Quote
    Doce Me,

    You signed up for an account in 2011 but you just made your first post?

    Also, you profile shows you have 15 upvotes and 1 downvote. ?

    Not trying to attack you at all, just honest questions.

    Maybe there is a glitch or something.

    The system thought I was new since it didn't show any posts at first, plus I joined SO long ago and posted very little (if at all) so I sure FELT new.  I have no idea what happened to any old posts or why I have upvotes.  I thought it was curious to see that after posting just once.

    Maybe it wasn't polite to sign up and then not post much at all but surely I'm not the only one who ever does this. I had no nefarious intentions!

    Honest answers! :)   Maybe there was some glitch, but I know nothing about it.
    Doce Me Veritatem (Teach me truth) - Mt. Saint Mary College motto

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Atila and the TFP
    « Reply #119 on: May 31, 2019, 10:27:34 PM »
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  • I believe that when you join you start with 10 +s and 0 -s. I also believe that quite a few folk join up and don't post. 

    ANyway, Doce Me, welcome from me, in spite of the fact that I joined after you.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.