Author Topic: Athanasian Creed question for implicit faith people (Read 947 times)

Exurge · « **on:** April 10, 2014, 11:35:13 PM »

So are we to understand that what the Athansian Creed and the Council of Florence declared -which is the same thing since the Council just reiterated the Creed- is not to be taken literally, and that you actually don't need to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation to be saved?

Ambrose · « **Reply #1 on:** April 11, 2014, 12:35:02 AM »

Quote from: Exurge

So are we to understand that what the Athansian Creed and the Council of Florence declared -which is the same thing since the Council just reiterated the Creed- is not to be taken literally, and that you actually don't need to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation to be saved?

I don't think you are understanding the position. They person you are describing is not denying these truths, but accepts them implicitly, meaning that he accepts all revealed truths as they become known to him explicitly.

Exurge · « **Reply #2 on:** April 11, 2014, 12:57:10 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Exurge
So are we to understand that what the Athansian Creed and the Council of Florence declared -which is the same thing since the Council just reiterated the Creed- is not to be taken literally, and that you actually don't need to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation to be saved?

I don't think you are understanding the position. They person you are describing is not denying these truths, but accepts them implicitly, meaning that he accepts all revealed truths as they become known to him explicitly.

I understand that. But as i said in the other thread, how can someone have perfect contrition without the knowledge of the Incarnation? How can someone truly repent?

Stubborn · « **Reply #3 on:** April 11, 2014, 04:36:02 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Exurge
So are we to understand that what the Athansian Creed and the Council of Florence declared -which is the same thing since the Council just reiterated the Creed- is not to be taken literally, and that you actually don't need to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation to be saved?

I don't think you are understanding the position. They person you are describing is not denying these truths, but accepts them implicitly, meaning that he accepts all revealed truths as they become known to him explicitly.

More Novus Ordo double talk there Ambrose with your Novus Ordo ideas about non-Catholics "explicitly reject / implicitly accept truths".

Ladislaus · « **Reply #4 on:** April 11, 2014, 06:07:42 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

I don't think you are understanding the position. They person you are describing is not denying these truths, but accepts them implicitly, meaning that he accepts all revealed truths as they become known to him explicitly.

But that's wordsmithing around the issue again. What's in question is whether these truths must be believed EXPLICITLY.

It NEVER entered into the mind of ANY Church Father that these truths could be believed implicitly, so in interpreting away the Athanasian Creed to mean that no one can be saved who doesn't (at least implicitly) believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation is not reading it "in the same sense" in eodem sensu in which those who wrote it understood it.

You guys always accuse US of "interpreting". It's mind-boggling.

You guys are the ones who interpreted EENS into the opposite of EENS, having the hubris to claim that we are heretical for saying that only Catholic can be saved. It's diabolical.

You always demand "proof" from us.

I demand proof, a citation from someone who was involved in the writing of the Athanasian Creed or at least alive at that time which demonstrates the sensus of the passage that's consistent with your explaining away of it. Otherwise, it must be understood in exactly as it was written. You might claim that we have to prove that the text means what it literally says, but the burden of proof is ON YOU because we accept it as it's literally written and it is YOU who claim that it doesn't mean what it actually says.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #5 on:** April 11, 2014, 06:09:12 AM »

Quote from: Exurge

I understand that. But as i said in the other thread, how can someone have perfect contrition without the knowledge of the Incarnation? How can someone truly repent?

Only in some bizarre gnostic fashion.

Exurge · « **Reply #6 on:** April 11, 2014, 08:41:52 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Exurge
So are we to understand that what the Athansian Creed and the Council of Florence declared -which is the same thing since the Council just reiterated the Creed- is not to be taken literally, and that you actually don't need to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation to be saved?

I don't think you are understanding the position. They person you are describing is not denying these truths, but accepts them implicitly, meaning that he accepts all revealed truths as they become known to him explicitly.

How can you believe in the 4 minimum and in suprema haec sacra at the same time?

bowler · « **Reply #7 on:** April 11, 2014, 08:57:46 AM »

Quote from: Exurge

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Exurge
So are we to understand that what the Athansian Creed and the Council of Florence declared -which is the same thing since the Council just reiterated the Creed- is not to be taken literally, and that you actually don't need to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation to be saved?

I don't think you are understanding the position. They person you are describing is not denying these truths, but accepts them implicitly, meaning that he accepts all revealed truths as they become known to him explicitly.

How can you believe in the 4 minimum and in suprema haec sacra at the same time?

The "4" minimum that Ambrose "says" he believes, is just a copout, for two are belief in Christ and the Trinity, the other two are no belief in Christ and the Trinity. THEY ARE OPPOSED.

How can anyone hope to convince BODers of ANYTHING, when the BODers deny the clearest dogma there is? The BODers believe that anyone can be saved even if they have no explcit belief in Christ and the Trinity, AND not only that, they believe that someone can be saved who has no explcit desire to be baptized nor martyred, nor explcit desire to even be a Catholic! This belief of theirs is not taught by any Father, Doctor or Saint, and it is opposed to clear dogma of Florence, and St. Thomas, the Athanasian Creed etc., yet they pertinaciously still cling to it. It is IMPOSSIBLE to convince people like this of ANYTHING when that is what they WANT/DESIRE to believe!

Quote from: bowler

The clear uncompromising teaching of the doctrine that one must at least believe explicitly in the Incarnation (=Christ) and the Trinity for salvation, is the basis for the labors of all who seek to maintain and restore traditional Catholicity, though most of those who are engaged in this struggle have yet to realize the fact. Without at least this doctrine, assented to absolutely, and the condemnation of the opposing view, Traditionalists have no case nor argument against anything in Vatican II. Anyone who says they "don't condemn" the opposite opinion, by the very act, approve it, and thus become like the salt that looses its flavor, neutralized, precisely where the enemies of the Church want them to be neutralized.

Quote
But whoever dares to say: “Outside the Church is no salvation”, ought to be driven from the State
Jean-Jacques Rousseau, The Social Contract, Book IV, Ch. 8

( http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/rousseau/social-contract/ )

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Vatican I
The Catholic Church has always held that there is a twofold order of knowledge, and that these two orders are distinguished from one another not only in their principle but in their object; in one we know by natural reason, in the other by Divine faith; the object of the one is truth attainable by natural reason, the object of the other is mysteries hidden in God, but which we have to believe and which can only be known to us by Divine revelation.

This is why I have always held that the opinion that the existence of God as rewarder cannot suffice for supernatural faith. Vatican I here finishes off holding to that opinion once and for all.

It confirms the unanimous opinion of the Fathers (considered infallible) as expounded in the ancient Athanasian Creed, it was the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, and it was clearly infallible decreed at the Council of Florence:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

St. Thomas Aquinas:

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)