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Author Topic: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?  (Read 9455 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2020, 11:15:51 PM »
Quote from: Clemens Maria
We've gone over this several times before and you refuse to even recognize any of the arguments against your position.  You are not sincerely seeking the truth.  You are just pushing an agenda.

I recognized the two arguments and addressed them. We may not agree, but there it is. I have no "agenda" but the Catholic Faith, all that pertains to it, and only that which pertains to it. Of the about 20 articles I wrote for 1P5, all are on the Catholic Faith. Some are apologetic articles against Modernism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy. Some are devotional articles. This one was on SVism.

I know you think you have arguments showing all Ordinaries can defect. The issue is that it's contrary to Vatican I, and a statement in the Oath Against Modernism. How do you explain those two sources, Clemens Maria?

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As for your implied claim that the entire hierarchy consists solely of the ordinaries, you should read The Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology by Pietro Parente because there you will find that the hierarchy also includes all clerics.

You need a statement like, "All Bishops with ordinary jurisdiction can defect, so long as some vagrant clerics without jurisdiction remain". Do you have anything like that? I don't think you'll find a statement to that effect.

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 And even the home-aloners have reasonable arguments for why they think that all clerics have defected as well.  I don't agree with them but I don't think their position is completely without any reasonable basis.

The home aloners who make the jurisdiction argument are taking 60 year sedevacantism to its logical conclusion. They are pointing out there are no authorized sede Priests or authorized sede Bishops since there was no Pope to authorize them.

I'm not disagreeing with the conclusion of their argument. I'm disagreeing with the premise that led to that conclusion. If and only if there was no Pope, it's true that no one was authorized these last 60 years. Otherwise, it's not true at all.

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You on the other hand have elevated your opinion to the level of dogma and that is completely unreasonable.  I won't say that your arguments are completely unfounded but they are not certain so accusing others of heresy on these points is morally wrong.

Not so. I don't consider normal sedevacantism to be heretical. Nor even 5 or 10 year sedevacantism to be heretical. There are two things I do consider heretical, with good reasons from dogmatic sources: (1) Saying the entire hierarchy can defect (2) Saying an indefinite vacancy is possible. When someone claims something is heresy, he must show the dogma that it opposes. What dogma does (1) oppose? Aposotolicity. What dogma does (2) oppose? St. Peter's Perpetual Successors, defined at Vatican I.

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On the other hand you refuse to accuse the Novus Ordo ordinaries (including Chaos Frank) who have not only denied word-for-word dogmas of the Church but have also given clear indications of their unholy motive for doing so.

I hold only the Ordinaries can pass judgment that the Pope has lost office, as also Fr. Suarez said. So what efforts are sedevacantists making to assemble the Ordinaries (or even non-Ordinaries if you insist) in a General Council to do so?
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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2020, 11:27:27 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus
No, by virtue of the appointment, they can formally exercise jurisidiction provided they have no impediment from doing so.
Is there a source for this? I can show you sources that Ordinary Jurisdiction only passes to Bishops through the Successor of St. Peter. I'm not disagreeing that for e.g. a Cardinal Burke or Cardinal Sarah really possesses authority. But I can hold so consistently since I hold the Pope who appointed them had authority. Thus, they received their authority through his authority, in my view. In your view? They received their authority through his non-authority?

The early sedevacantists argued those appointed by those who lacked authority themselves lacked authority. They took cuм Ex at its word here, and used that argument against +ABL.

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Also, even in straight sedevacantism, it's demonstrated quite clearly that the bishops continue to exercise jurisdiction even during interregna.  Theologians were also cited to the effect that jurisdiction could even derive from Antipopes due to color of title.
It's not about Bishops already appointed continuing to exercise jurisdiction. We all agree they can. It's about whether new Bishops can be appointed by heretics during interregna. Even if they could be appointed by Catholics, it still remains a truism, per Fr. Gueranger, that Catholics cannot have the Apostolic Mission transmitted them by heretics.

Here is the source, cited in the OP: "defiled by heresy; they became chairs of pestilence; and having corrupted the faith they received from Rome, they could not transmit to others the mission they themselves had forfeited"

Do you still hold that those who are defiled by heresy can transmit to others a mission they themselves have forfeited, after this?

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You've been refuted on this point several times by the sedevacantists, but you simply ignore their arguments and keep re-stating yours.

Not at all. I take their arguments into account and answer/refute them. The same as I refuted Protestant arguments in an article on Purgatory. We may not agree, but there it is.

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You're perfectly free to disagree with the thesis that there can be jurisdiction in the Church during an interregnum or that color of title suffices for the transmission of jurisdiction from Christ.

Color of title as applied to a Catholic, I agree. As applied to a heretic, no. Can the Patriarch of Constantinople appoint Bishops to offices of authority?  No, because heretics cannot appoint Catholics to authority.

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Jurisdiction in the Church comes from Christ, and the Pope is a conduit for it, and there's nothing that rules out that even a purely material pope could continue serving as a conduit for jurisdiction even when he cannot himself formally exercise it.  
If he was a Catholic, it is defensible. To say a heretic can serve as a conduit for authority to be transmitted to Catholics is absurd.

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Again, disagree with this, but for you to continue to assert that it's heretical is completely unwarranted.
I didn't say this was heresy. I only said two things were heresy (1) Ecclesia-Vacantism, or no hierarchy. (2) Indefinite SVism, or the idea that a vacancy can be extended forever unproblematically. Given your idea that a non-Catholic can serve as a conduit for jurisdiction to Catholic Bishops, is there any limit to a vacancy? Or is it possible in your view that a Papal Vacancy can last forever?

To me, saying a Papal Vacancy can last indefinitely is a direct and plain contradiction to St. Peter's Perpetual Successors Dogma. It reduces that Dogma to a meaningless formula. That's why God won't let a succession of non-Catholics last indefinitely.
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Online Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2020, 05:32:35 AM »
Quote from: Bataar on July 29, 2020, 05:22:05 PM
According to Vatican I, the church is also infallible when using her Universal Ordinary Magisterium. This may be what Fenton meant in his 4th option.
This is actually wrong, in order to be correct means that we must be precise in this field. To be precise, V1 taught that all those things are to be believed which are contained in both the Church's Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.

Fr. Fenton's idea of some other infallibility is clearly novel, and if his idea is true, then the NO is the true Church and all trads are outside of it because by claiming that the conciliar popes (together with the hierarchy) have taught and do teach heresy to the whole world, we deny his idea. IOW, we are in direct contradiction to this idea of Fr. Fenton - whose same idea is shared by some of the other 19th/20th century theologians.  


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If the pope, together with all of the bishops teach something, it is to be considered infallible. Take the idea of Guardian Angels for example. There is no Ex Cathedra doctrine stating that Guardian Angels exist and that we all have one, yet the church, in her universal ordinary magisterium teaches this and it would be heresy to deny it.
You likely do not know it but you are preaching a NO doctrine (bolded), this doctrine is found only in Lumen Gentium 25.2 and is not a teaching of the Church. Again, if it were a true doctrine, then all trads are not members of the Catholic Church because we deny this NO "doctrine" by being trads.  

The doctrine of the Guardian Angels is part of tradition, having been always and everywhere taught and believed by all of the faithful is one of those things contained in the Church's Universal Magisterium of which V1 speaks which, "by divine and Catholic faith" we are to believe, which is why we believe it - *if* we have the Catholic faith.  

Always remember that in Church speak, the word "Universal" *always* includes the element of time, it's meaning is from the time of the Apostles until the end of time.  



 
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Offline Stanley N

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2020, 07:56:11 PM »
Quote from: Struthio on July 29, 2020, 10:01:15 PM
No, no, no, stop! There's one very bad suggestion: "Perhaps even suspending judgment?"

That's grave sin! The principal rule of natural law is: Do what's good and omit what's bad. And to follow that rule, you have to judge. If you suspend judgment, the devil already got you. There is a webpage on the net, where a Thomist university professor of philosophy and theology declared that he, given the robber council, stops to thinking further. He did realize that the robber council teaches heresy. Without realizing this, he wouldn't have to stop thinking. He is just a coward, kneeling in front of Antichrist.
Most heresiarchs would have benefitted from some suspending judgment. 
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #89 on: July 30, 2020, 09:26:07 PM »

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You need a statement like, "All Bishops with ordinary jurisdiction can defect, so long as some vagrant clerics without jurisdiction remain". Do you have anything like that?

1.  All V2 bishops with oridinary jurisdiction have not defected, +Vigano being a good example, and maybe others like +Schneider and +Sarah, to a smaller degree.
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2.  During Arianism, most clerics defected (I cannot say all, but I also cannot say that some didn't, as history does not concern itself with such details).  What we know is that +Athanasius did not defect, even though he was stripped of ordinary jurisdiction, being the equivalent of a current "Trad bishop", such as +Williamson or +Sanborn, +Dolan, etc..
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The home aloners who make the jurisdiction argument are taking 60 year sedevacantism to its logical conclusion. They are pointing out there are no authorized sede Priests or authorized sede Bishops since there was no Pope to authorize them.
And they are wrong, because canon law authorizes jurisdiction in emergency circuмstances, such as happened during china's communistic reign, when chinese bishops ordained/consecrated bishops for the preservation of the faith, unknown to Rome.
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I'm not disagreeing with the conclusion of their argument. I'm disagreeing with the premise that led to that conclusion. If and only if there was no Pope, it's true that no one was authorized these last 60 years.

Pope or no pope, "home aloners" are wrong (just as you are) because you restrict canon law (i.e. church law) to papal authority.  The Church is greater than the pope because Christ created the papacy.  The pope exists to teach/govern the Church; the Church does is not restricted by a pope or a lack his leadership.
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I can show you sources that Ordinary Jurisdiction only passes to Bishops through the Successor of St. Peter.

Canon Law = supplied jurisdiction for many cases.
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To say a heretic can serve as a conduit for authority to be transmitted to Catholics is absurd.

Whether a heretical pope can or can't provide jurisdiction is irrelevant.  Canon law allows for supplied jurisdiction, to those faithful who request the sacraments, either way.
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There is such a thing as a materially heretic pope (not yet declared, not yet decided he is obstinate) who is not yet a formal heretic.  So, in such cases, the church still continues to operate, whether or not the pope is a heretic or not.
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I only said two things were heresy (1) Ecclesia-Vacantism, or no hierarchy. (2) Indefinite SVism, or the idea that a vacancy can be extended forever unproblematically.

1) As during Arianism, where was the hierarchy?  It was in St Athanasius (excommunicated, with no ordinary jurisdiction) and others like him.  He was not, legally, the hierarchy, so according to your definition, during Arianism, there was no hierarchy, bu the Church still survived.
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2) No one says that SVism extends indefinitely.  We just haven't seen the end of it.  All signs, including many prophecies, point to a miraculous resurrection of the Church.  Svism doesn't have to explain the full theory to be correct.  Its principles are solid.
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