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Author Topic: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?  (Read 9442 times)

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2020, 10:16:26 PM »
Does anyone see the parallel between; David and Saul, and the V II popes and Trads?

 Francis et al are holding the offices, but are also stark-raving mad. They attack the Faith and those like Lefebvre who keep it; forcing them live in exile. 

Despite the injustice, David refused to depose the unworthy Saul out of respect for the office. This suggests that the correct course of action for Trads is to maintain the R&R position until the situation resolves and this phase of the chastisement ends.

The SV position is like David saying "Saul's madness proves he has lost the crown! There is no King in Israel! Let all who love Israel follow me!"

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2020, 10:17:21 PM »
Alexander VI led an immoral life, had several illegitimate children and gave his daughter an annulment. Shortly after, Leo X put the church in debt and gave indulgences for "donations". Many criticized him, including a certain monk in Germany.

These popes were scandals to the Catholic world, yet they remained the heads of the church, and those who separated from them ceased to be Catholic.

So how can you come to the definitive conclusion there is no hierarchy?

All bishops of all dioceses adhere to the robber council. The robber council taught heresy (e.g. a natural right of religious liberty = negation of the first commandment and of Quanta cura, the latter being a textbook example of ex cathedra teaching). Hence they're all manifest heretics. Hence they all lost office (or didn't have one, to begin with), as the fathers unanimously teach (see the Doctor of the Church St. Robert Bellarmine).

That's how I come to the conclusion that there is no hierarchy.

P.S.: Heresy, apostacy, and schism separate the candidate ipso facto from the Church, while other sins (immoral life, ... ) don't.


Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2020, 10:39:18 PM »
Another example,

Jesus and the Pharisees,

Jesus never questioned the legitimacy of the Pharisees, but He denounced their errors and crimes at every turn.

He did this for His entire public ministry until He had made His final sacrifice (with their ungodly assistance). He then ended the chastisement of the Pharisees' faithlessness and began His reign of peace by appointing a worthy pope.

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2020, 12:25:39 AM »
 There is NO SUCH THING as as a 'Sedevacantist" :confused:

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2020, 05:45:42 AM »
No, that's not what I am saying. Perhaps one day we will have one if it's God's will.
What I'm saying is that if recognized popes and bishops with Ordinary jurisdiction can be resisted since Vatican II, why not 100 years? Or 500 years? Xavier seems to present the argument that SVism is wrong because of not having a pope or bishops for 60+ years disproves its thesis. I really don't see the difference in degrees of problems when one can resist indefinitely. It seems to undermine the necessity of the Petrine office. Try making this argument with Eastern Orthodox and they would say they resist the pope just like the SSPX, so there is no difference.
The reason you do not see any difference LeDeg, is because your conclusion in and of itself being improper, bespeaks of no difference.

As my sig says: The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

As such, the question should be;
At what point may we disobey God in order to obey the pope, who is a man? 60 years? 100 years? Or 500 years? The answer is of course, never.

The whole sede mindset, their lex credendi, hinges on the idea that the pope is supposed to be something almost celestial, at least something more than a man who is incapable of doing what man is capable of doing - combined with the idea that their knowledge of his sins (of heresy, apostasy etc.) authorizes and qualifies them to decide to dethrone him, to deprive him of his office, which is precisely what they have decided to do. They believe to do this is true, even courageous Catholicism.  

As faithful Catholics in regards to the pope, it is our duty to pray daily for the pope, always has been, always will be. As recent history proves, Catholics can keep the faith and grow in it, and there is nothing to stop us from even becoming great saints, even though the popes and hierarchy are blatantly heretical, provided that through it all we adhere to the highest principle in the Church. It really is not at all complicated.

*That* is the Church's indefectibility working.