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Author Topic: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?  (Read 2346 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2020, 01:30:04 PM »
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  • Obviously you don't know what you are talking about.  A hierarchy that can be resisted and overruled by the subjects is no hierarchy at all.  The Resistance view of ecclesiology may be compatible with Antifa doctrine but it isn't compatible with Catholic doctrine.

    Bishop Williamson and the Resistance if they have been unjustly excommunicated by a true pope are "bound to obey legitimate authority and to behave as one under the ban of excommunication, until he is rehabilitated or absolved."  Fr Chazal doesn't worry about that because he doesn't think Frank is a true pope in the sense that he legitimately holds the office of the Bishop of Rome.  Fr Chazal believes that Frank has no authority in the Church.  But you think that Frank does hold authority in the Church but that you can overrule him if you judge his discipline doesn't measure up to your standards.  That's not a Catholic hierarchy.  A true pope can even suppress a religious order that was not guilty of any crimes (e.g. Society of Jesus in the 1700s).  Some people might consider that unjust but the pope has the authority to do it.  And we would be bound by his decision.  So spare me your patronizing attitude about the hierarchy.  At least sedes have the hope of an election.  Whereas R&R will be stuck in the Novus Ordo until the end of time.

    Is the father of a family a legitimate authority to his children?

    Yes?

    If he issues them an unjust or evil command, does it mean (as the sedes would have it) that he has ceased to be their legitimate authority?

    Obviously not:

    They are obligated to resist his evil commands, and issuing such commands does not obliterate his legitimate authority over them (nor do the children conclude that, if he has issues an evil command, he has ceased to be their father)!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #16 on: July 27, 2020, 01:31:56 PM »
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  • No, that's not what I am saying. Perhaps one day we will have one if it's God's will.
    What I'm saying is that if recognized popes and bishops with Ordinary jurisdiction can be resisted since Vatican II, why not 100 years? Or 500 years? Xavier seems to present the argument that SVism is wrong because of not having a pope or bishops for 60+ years disproves its thesis. I really don't see the difference in degrees of problems when one can resist indefinitely. It seems to undermine the necessity of the Petrine office. Try making this argument with Eastern Orthodox and they would say they resist the pope just like the SSPX, so there is no difference.

    How about 1,700 years ago during the Arian crisis?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Argentino

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #17 on: July 27, 2020, 01:36:11 PM »
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  • Catholic books say that even ordinary jurisdiction can be automatically supplied by the Church.

    So, not having a bishop of a diocese to follow is not strictly necessary.

    And, when it comes to electing a pope, Catholic books say that this is not an act of jurisdiction. Historically, clergy merely had to be citizens around Rome. An election is ASKING a man to be their bishop, not appointing him against his will.

    This means, that if all clergy in Italy died, and some traditional priests traveled there and became citizens, they could elect a bishop from anywhere around the world to be their bishop - the Bishop of Rome. Accepting it, he would then have full ordinary jurisdiction over the Catholics of the whole world.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #18 on: July 27, 2020, 01:42:25 PM »
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  • Sean, you have a non-Catholic view of the papacy.  Lutherans, Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox schismatics can (and do) claim that the pope gave unjust and evil commands/doctrine.  They are not infallible and neither are you.  Where the pope is, there is the Catholic Church.  If Frank is the true pope, then the Novus Ordo is holy and leading people to Heaven.  Ecuмenism, Inter-religious dialogue and collegiality are true doctrines of the Catholic Church and are leading people to Heaven.  Communion in the hand is preferred and in some cases required over communion on the tongue.  The death penalty is immoral.  If Frank is the pope, we can trust that all of that is good and holy and will lead us to Heaven.  You complain that sedes have no hierarchy but in your view, the Catholic Church's hierarchy is unholy, corrupt and systematically leading souls to hell.  How is your view any different from that of the enemies of the Church?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #19 on: July 27, 2020, 02:12:34 PM »
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  • Sean, you have a non-Catholic view of the papacy.  Lutherans, Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox schismatics can (and do) claim that the pope gave unjust and evil commands/doctrine.  They are not infallible and neither are you.  Where the pope is, there is the Catholic Church.  If Frank is the true pope, then the Novus Ordo is holy and leading people to Heaven.  Ecuмenism, Inter-religious dialogue and collegiality are true doctrines of the Catholic Church and are leading people to Heaven.  Communion in the hand is preferred and in some cases required over communion on the tongue.  The death penalty is immoral.  If Frank is the pope, we can trust that all of that is good and holy and will lead us to Heaven.  You complain that sedes have no hierarchy but in your view, the Catholic Church's hierarchy is unholy, corrupt and systematically leading souls to hell.  How is your view any different from that of the enemies of the Church?

    Let’s see here:

    The man who has unilaterally deposed the last 6-7 popes, αssαssιnαtҽd the entire hierarchy (or any hope of ever recovering an hierarchy), and zapped the entire Church of ordinary jurisdiction is accusing ME of having a non-Catholic view of the papacy?

    Lol!!

    What world do you live in?

    You have just invented a new Church.  One in which Jesus needed no Apostles or Disciples.  One which has no formal apostolicity, and one which disregards the hierarchical constitution of the Church.

    You doctrine is crazier than the Moonies.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #20 on: July 27, 2020, 02:28:17 PM »
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  • Let’s see here:

    The man who has unilaterally deposed resisted the last 6-7 popes, αssαssιnαtҽd resisted the entire hierarchy (or any hope of ever recovering an infallible hierarchy), and zapped resisted the entire Church of ordinary jurisdiction is accusing ME of having a non-Catholic view of the papacy?

    Lol!!

    What world do you live in?

    You have just invented a new Church.  One in which Jesus needed no Apostles or Disciples.  One which has no formal apostolicity, and one which disregards the hierarchical constitution of the Church.

    You doctrine is crazier than the Moonies.
    Fixed it for you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #21 on: July 27, 2020, 03:23:09 PM »
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  • No, that's not what I am saying. Perhaps one day we will have one if it's God's will.
    What I'm saying is that if recognized popes and bishops with Ordinary jurisdiction can be resisted since Vatican II, why not 100 years? Or 500 years? Xavier seems to present the argument that SVism is wrong because of not having a pope or bishops for 60+ years disproves its thesis. I really don't see the difference in degrees of problems when one can resist indefinitely. It seems to undermine the necessity of the Petrine office. Try making this argument with Eastern Orthodox and they would say they resist the pope just like the SSPX, so there is no difference.

    Right.  BOTH R&R and SV positions have some difficulties with them.  Both sides need to acknowledge these difficulties in order to have any kind of constructive discussion.  Dogmatists on either side are dividing the Traditional movement.  They point to the issues with the other side as conclusive, while they explain away the difficulties with their own and pretend that it's just made up by their opponents.  People need to shows some good will and honesty.

    Yes, it's a problem for the Holy See to be unoccupied for this long.  Yes, it's a problem with R&R so say that the Magisterium could go so badly off the rails as to create a practical requirement to sever communion with the hierarchy.  I lean toward SVism because I find the latter problem to be insurmountable, while the former is not.  But these are both genuine problems.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #22 on: July 27, 2020, 03:46:40 PM »
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  • Right.  BOTH R&R and SV positions have some difficulties with them.  Both sides need to acknowledge these difficulties in order to have any kind of constructive discussion.  Dogmatists on either side are dividing the Traditional movement.  They point to the issues with the other side as conclusive, while they explain away the difficulties with their own and pretend that it's just made up by their opponents.  People need to shows some good will and honesty.

    Yes, it's a problem for the Holy See to be unoccupied for this long.  Yes, it's a problem with R&R so say that the Magisterium could go so badly off the rails as to create a practical requirement to sever communion with the hierarchy.  I lean toward SVism because I find the latter problem to be insurmountable, while the former is not.  But these are both genuine problems.

    Your problem with R&R stems from the misconception you articulate above (ie., That you erroneously believe R&R has practically severed communion with the hierarchy):

    If in addition to semi-Arianism, St. Athanasius also had to resist 100 other errors of Pope Liberius, you are implying such resistance would be wrong.

    That is illogical.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 06:17:24 PM »
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  • Is the father of a family a legitimate authority to his children?

    Yes?

    If he issues them an unjust or evil command, does it mean (as the sedes would have it) that he has ceased to be their legitimate authority?

    Obviously not:

    They are obligated to resist his evil commands, and issuing such commands does not obliterate his legitimate authority over them (nor do the children conclude that, if he has issues an evil command, he has ceased to be their father)!


    Here we go again with one of the worst anti-sedevacantist arguments of all time, the BAD DAD argument!  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
    Sean, I wrote this to you in a post a while back:


    “Sean, this argument is possibly the worst argument that the R&R position has ever had. Every time I hear it, it’s like nails on a chalkboard. “Bad dad”.

    Your father is your father In perpetuity due to your biological connection. A pope is not perpetually the pope. For instance, you believe that Ratzinger was the pope but resigned. Now, according to you, he is no longer a true pope.

    Aside from that, if your father became a heretic, he would still be your father, but he would no longer be a member of the Church. If the pope became a heretic he would no longer be the holy father nor would he be a member of the Church.”

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 06:50:40 PM »
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  • Your problem with R&R stems from the misconception you articulate above (ie., That you erroneously believe R&R has practically severed communion with the hierarchy):

    If in addition to semi-Arianism, St. Athanasius also had to resist 100 other errors of Pope Liberius, you are implying such resistance would be wrong.

    That is illogical.

    Well, I have a lot more issues with R&R than that one.  I just summarized one succinctly to make the point.  Simple obedience is not the same as submission to the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church.  Pope Liberius did not have "100 other errors".

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 06:58:30 PM »
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  • Well, I have a lot more issues with R&R than that one.  I just summarized one succinctly to make the point.  Simple obedience is not the same as submission to the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church.  Pope Liberius did not have "100 other errors".
    Agreed. In fact, it would seem that the canard of Pope Liberius falling into error stems from Michael Davies basing his research on Cardinal Newmans research 12 years prior to becoming Catholic. In other words, when he was a heretic. This erroneous view has been trumpeted around by the likes of the Remnant newspaper and publishing Michael Davies famous little book on St Athanasius and distributing it around trad book stores.
    Louie V and John Lane just did a video on this. It certainly changed my perspective on the Arian crisis and what I thought I knew. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 07:53:27 PM »
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  • Your problem with R&R stems from the misconception you articulate above (ie., That you erroneously believe R&R has practically severed communion with the hierarchy):

    If in addition to semi-Arianism, St. Athanasius also had to resist 100 other errors of Pope Liberius, you are implying such resistance would be wrong.

    That is illogical.
    So is it erroneous to believe that Bp. Williamson was excommunicated?

    Even if the excommunication was unjust, Bp. Williamson still ought to, by law and duty, act as if under excommunication. He does not. How is this not an issue to you? 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 08:05:36 PM »
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  • So is it erroneous to believe that Bp. Williamson was excommunicated?

    Even if the excommunication was unjust, Bp. Williamson still ought to, by law and duty, act as if under excommunication. He does not. How is this not an issue to you?

    What?

    Can you explain to me why one invalidly excommunicated ought to pretend he was validly excommunicated?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #28 on: July 27, 2020, 08:46:49 PM »
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  • What?

    Can you explain to me why one invalidly excommunicated ought to pretend he was validly excommunicated?

    You could argue that Bishop Williamson was unjustly excommunicated for consecrating 3 bishops without a papal mandate but you can't argue that it was an invalid excommunication.  Unless you are arguing that the consecrations never happened.  If he consecrated even one bishop without a papal mandate and Frank is the true pope, then it is certainly a valid excommunication even if it could somehow be argued that it was unjust.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
    « Reply #29 on: July 27, 2020, 08:55:45 PM »
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  • In fact, didn't the SSPX clergy write an open letter in 1988 saying they were proud to be excommunicated from the Conciliar Church?  If JP Deuce was the true pope, then certainly those excommunications were valid.  It's a crime to consecrate bishops without a papal mandate and especially so when it is against the expressed command of the pope.  Unless there is a sede vacante and there is an urgent need for new bishops.

    Supposedly the big problem with the SV position is that 60 years is too long.  But there is no dogma that a long sede vacante contradicts.  Whereas resisting the pope is certainly contrary to dogmatic Church doctrine concerning the papacy.