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Author Topic: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?  (Read 9470 times)

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2020, 08:40:46 AM »
First, it is relevant to everyone if someone falls into open heresy, and the Ecclesia-Vacantist opinion that the entire hierarchy is heretical is certainly itself heretical. It is heretical irrespective of whether it is held by sedes like Struthio or R&R like Stubborn. I respond to whoever denies it, docuмenting from Church Catechisms and other official sources, that it is impossible.

I have been replying to 3 separate errors (1) The entire hierarchy can defect into heresy or die (2) Papal appointment is not necessary for ordinary jurisdiction and formal apostolicity, and (3) the Church can elect a new Pope without Ordinaries issuing a juridical declaration first. I believe you agree with, or at least don't contest, (1) or (3), but you do deny 2. Is that right?

With regard to Sede-Privationism, here's the thing: Sede-Privationism says the material Pope remains a Pope-elect only. In such a case, the Bishops designated by him would remain Bishop-designates only. It is the universal Jurisdiction of the Supreme Pastor that effects the conferral of particular jurisdiction of the Bishop. If you disagree with this, you disagree with the doctrine as explained by the Theologians, including Msgr. Fenton and Cardinal Ottaviani. So I'm not disturbed by the objection of Sede-privationism.

This is a real problem for sedevacantism, whether sedevacantists and quasi-sedevacantists want to admit it or not. A 100 year interregnum is clearly heretical and contradicts the defined dogma on St. Peter's Perpetual Successors. So what is the limit?

No sedevacantist even wants to touch that question? The clear limit, upon reflection, is seen to be when all Papally appointed Bishops die.

We've gone over this several times before and you refuse to even recognize any of the arguments against your position.  You are not sincerely seeking the truth.  You are just pushing an agenda.

As for your implied claim that the entire hierarchy consists solely of the ordinaries, you should read The Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology by Pietro Parente because there you will find that the hierarchy also includes all clerics.  And even the home-aloners have reasonable arguments for why they think that all clerics have defected as well.  I don't agree with them but I don't think their position is completely without any reasonable basis.  You on the other hand have elevated your opinion to the level of dogma and that is completely unreasonable.  I won't say that your arguments are completely unfounded but they are not certain so accusing others of heresy on these points is morally wrong.  On the other hand you refuse to accuse the Novus Ordo ordinaries (including Chaos Frank) who have not only denied word-for-word dogmas of the Church but have also given clear indications of their unholy motive for doing so.  It is abundantly clear that you have an agenda which you hold to have a higher value than the truth.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2020, 09:03:38 AM »
With regard to Sede-Privationism, here's the thing: Sede-Privationism says the material Pope remains a Pope-elect only. In such a case, the Bishops designated by him would remain Bishop-designates only.

No, by virtue of the appointment, they can formally exercise jurisidiction provided they have no impediment from doing so.

Also, even in straight sedevacantism, it's demonstrated quite clearly that the bishops continue to exercise jurisdiction even during interregna.  Theologians were also cited to the effect that jurisdiction could even derive from Antipopes due to color of title.

You've been refuted on this point several times by the sedevacantists, but you simply ignore their arguments and keep re-stating yours.

You're perfectly free to disagree with the thesis that there can be jurisdiction in the Church during an interregnum or that color of title suffices for the transmission of jurisdiction from Christ.  Jurisdiction in the Church comes from Christ, and the Pope is a conduit for it, and there's nothing that rules out that even a purely material pope could continue serving as a conduit for jurisdiction even when he cannot himself formally exercise it.  Again, disagree with this, but for you to continue to assert that it's heretical is completely unwarranted.

You are not intellectually honest on this issue.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2020, 09:09:29 AM »
We've gone over this several times before and you refuse to even recognize any of the arguments against your position.  You are not sincerely seeking the truth.  You are just pushing an agenda.

Correct.  He ignores counter-arguments, does not rebut them, but merely keeps re-asserting and restating his own position.

He's been caught in many contradictions.

So, for instance, he claims allegiance to Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX.  But at the same time, he's asserted that the legitimacy of the V2 popes is dogmatic fact.  To deny or publicly doubt a dogmatic fact is in fact heresy, so since +Lefebvre and +Tissier and others in the SSPX have publicly doubted the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants, they would be heretics if his assertion is true that their status is dogmatically certain.  But he refuses to come to terms with these contradictory positions.

When you hold two contradictory positions at the same time, that's clear evidence of bad will.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2020, 11:04:55 AM »
An interesting article by Msgr. Fenton.


http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm
From the link:


The article was mostly fine until Fr. Fenton gets to Fr. Fenton's own, original idea that people have wrongly come to believe is a teaching of the Church, this is the point where it gets twisted into error...

"In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth".

No, God has never "given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense etc......" If however, what he says here is in fact the truth and a true teaching of the Church, which it's not, but if it were, then all trads are wrong and the sedes are more wrong because although we all condemn the NO, the sedes go further and deny that popes are popes.

What the Church teaches in this matter and also what reality since V2 has proven, is that this paragraph is completely and totally wrong, a falsehood, an outright lie when taught by a learned theologian who is expected to know better. But rather than recognize the falsity of this idea based on what the Church actually teaches, the sedes take this false idea of Fr. Fenton as if it is dogma itself, so when they see the pope preaching heresy, they say; "because he does what popes cannot do, on that account he cannot be the pope".

In one paragraph Fr. Fenton obliterates the dogma of papal infallibility as defined at V1, which defined in apodictic terms that the pope is infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. If popes have any other "kind of infallibility", no mention was made at V1 - where, btw, infallibly defining papal infallibility was the very purpose of the Council. Did they forget about another kind or simply neglect to define this other kind of infallibility?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2020, 01:49:53 PM »
No, God has never "given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense etc......"

Yes, God has, and this principle derives from the indefectibility of the Church's Magisterium.