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Author Topic: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?  (Read 9359 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2020, 01:30:04 PM »
Quote from: Clemens Maria on July 27, 2020, 12:36:54 PM
Obviously you don't know what you are talking about.  A hierarchy that can be resisted and overruled by the subjects is no hierarchy at all.  The Resistance view of ecclesiology may be compatible with Antifa doctrine but it isn't compatible with Catholic doctrine.

Bishop Williamson and the Resistance if they have been unjustly excommunicated by a true pope are "bound to obey legitimate authority and to behave as one under the ban of excommunication, until he is rehabilitated or absolved."  Fr Chazal doesn't worry about that because he doesn't think Frank is a true pope in the sense that he legitimately holds the office of the Bishop of Rome.  Fr Chazal believes that Frank has no authority in the Church.  But you think that Frank does hold authority in the Church but that you can overrule him if you judge his discipline doesn't measure up to your standards.  That's not a Catholic hierarchy.  A true pope can even suppress a religious order that was not guilty of any crimes (e.g. Society of Jesus in the 1700s).  Some people might consider that unjust but the pope has the authority to do it.  And we would be bound by his decision.  So spare me your patronizing attitude about the hierarchy.  At least sedes have the hope of an election.  Whereas R&R will be stuck in the Novus Ordo until the end of time.

Is the father of a family a legitimate authority to his children?

Yes?

If he issues them an unjust or evil command, does it mean (as the sedes would have it) that he has ceased to be their legitimate authority?

Obviously not:

They are obligated to resist his evil commands, and issuing such commands does not obliterate his legitimate authority over them (nor do the children conclude that, if he has issues an evil command, he has ceased to be their father)!
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2020, 01:31:56 PM »
Quote from: LeDeg on July 27, 2020, 12:55:11 PM
No, that's not what I am saying. Perhaps one day we will have one if it's God's will.
What I'm saying is that if recognized popes and bishops with Ordinary jurisdiction can be resisted since Vatican II, why not 100 years? Or 500 years? Xavier seems to present the argument that SVism is wrong because of not having a pope or bishops for 60+ years disproves its thesis. I really don't see the difference in degrees of problems when one can resist indefinitely. It seems to undermine the necessity of the Petrine office. Try making this argument with Eastern Orthodox and they would say they resist the pope just like the SSPX, so there is no difference.

How about 1,700 years ago during the Arian crisis?
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Offline Argentino

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2020, 01:36:11 PM »
Catholic books say that even ordinary jurisdiction can be automatically supplied by the Church.

So, not having a bishop of a diocese to follow is not strictly necessary.

And, when it comes to electing a pope, Catholic books say that this is not an act of jurisdiction. Historically, clergy merely had to be citizens around Rome. An election is ASKING a man to be their bishop, not appointing him against his will.

This means, that if all clergy in Italy died, and some traditional priests traveled there and became citizens, they could elect a bishop from anywhere around the world to be their bishop - the Bishop of Rome. Accepting it, he would then have full ordinary jurisdiction over the Catholics of the whole world.
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Offline Clemens Maria

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2020, 01:42:25 PM »
Sean, you have a non-Catholic view of the papacy.  Lutherans, Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox schismatics can (and do) claim that the pope gave unjust and evil commands/doctrine.  They are not infallible and neither are you.  Where the pope is, there is the Catholic Church.  If Frank is the true pope, then the Novus Ordo is holy and leading people to Heaven.  Ecuмenism, Inter-religious dialogue and collegiality are true doctrines of the Catholic Church and are leading people to Heaven.  Communion in the hand is preferred and in some cases required over communion on the tongue.  The death penalty is immoral.  If Frank is the pope, we can trust that all of that is good and holy and will lead us to Heaven.  You complain that sedes have no hierarchy but in your view, the Catholic Church's hierarchy is unholy, corrupt and systematically leading souls to hell.  How is your view any different from that of the enemies of the Church?
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2020, 02:12:34 PM »
Quote from: Clemens Maria on July 27, 2020, 01:42:25 PM
Sean, you have a non-Catholic view of the papacy.  Lutherans, Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox schismatics can (and do) claim that the pope gave unjust and evil commands/doctrine.  They are not infallible and neither are you.  Where the pope is, there is the Catholic Church.  If Frank is the true pope, then the Novus Ordo is holy and leading people to Heaven.  Ecuмenism, Inter-religious dialogue and collegiality are true doctrines of the Catholic Church and are leading people to Heaven.  Communion in the hand is preferred and in some cases required over communion on the tongue.  The death penalty is immoral.  If Frank is the pope, we can trust that all of that is good and holy and will lead us to Heaven.  You complain that sedes have no hierarchy but in your view, the Catholic Church's hierarchy is unholy, corrupt and systematically leading souls to hell.  How is your view any different from that of the enemies of the Church?

Let’s see here:

The man who has unilaterally deposed the last 6-7 popes, αssαssιnαtҽd the entire hierarchy (or any hope of ever recovering an hierarchy), and zapped the entire Church of ordinary jurisdiction is accusing ME of having a non-Catholic view of the papacy?

Lol!!

What world do you live in?

You have just invented a new Church.  One in which Jesus needed no Apostles or Disciples.  One which has no formal apostolicity, and one which disregards the hierarchical constitution of the Church.

You doctrine is crazier than the Moonies.
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