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Author Topic: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei  (Read 3429 times)

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Offline tdrev123

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Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
« on: October 15, 2019, 08:47:41 PM »
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  • http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2019/10/multiplication-problems.html

    What are your thoughts?  He essentially claims that the church has taught NFP infallibly through the magisterium.  

    I hope to start a civil discussion


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #1 on: October 16, 2019, 04:47:17 AM »
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  • http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2019/10/multiplication-problems.html

    What are your thoughts?  He essentially claims that the church has taught NFP infallibly through the magisterium.  

    I hope to start a civil discussion
    That's just the opinion of a nobody. NFP has never been taught infallible. One has to be very careful when they play that game (NFP), it is a most serious matter. Today, people use NFP to avoid children, like the world uses contraceptives. Avoiding children by contraceptives is worse than abortion, for in abortion the child has a soul and goes to Limbo to live a perfect earthly life for all eternity, while in contracepting, no soul is ever created, their existence was altogether snuffed away.


    If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)

    St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, Doctor of the Church:
    I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein. Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline donkath

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #2 on: October 16, 2019, 05:45:09 AM »
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  • I think one of the points being made is that refraining from sɛҳuąƖ relations during the fertile period is different to actual contraception.
    The former involves no specific act or interference with the natural processes of a woman's cycle, whereas contraception is a deliberate act that frustrates the natural processes.  The act is inherently evil in itself.   If there is no actual contraceptive employed then a sin of concupiscence can be the result which is a different sin.   It puts the husband in a dangerous situation.  He may have good intentions but over a period of days the question must be asked have both spouses committed no sin of impurity during that time?    It seems that at best a couple who chooses NFP are risking sinning which would seem to be sinful in itself.   So there are all degrees of sin involved even with those of good intentions.  The one big difference is that a contraceptive can also be an abortifaction.

    When NFP was first discovered and taught by the Drs. Billings husband and wife team it was promoted as having to be with the proper disposition such as has a priest when choosing celibacy.  And if by any chance a baby resulted when employing NFP he/she must be accepted and submitted to willingly as God's will.  So in marriage it seems obvious that it should never be practiced.

    It is uncharitable, to say the least, to attack Fr. Feeney or even home-aloners/R&R's as if they are all of the same mind about everything.
    Each person's state of soul is known only to God and these matters should be removed from any consideration of the subject in hand.
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline DLaurentius

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #3 on: October 16, 2019, 06:00:09 AM »
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  • http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2019/10/multiplication-problems.html

    What are your thoughts?  He essentially claims that the church has taught NFP infallibly through the magisterium.  

    I hope to start a civil discussion
    There are some who say it is at least a venial sin even if it is used for a grave cause. This position is explained on the following blog post: http://philotheaonphire.blogspot.com/

    However, I know there are some good priests like Father Chazal who are argue that it can licitly be used if there is grave cause (ie. real danger of death). In any case, almost
    all traditional Catholic priests would agree that complete abstinence is generally more virtuous than using NFP.  
    "Nam, etsi ambulavero in medio umbrae mortis, non timebo mala, quoniam tu mecuм es. Virga tua, et baculus tuus, ipsa me consolata sunt." - Psalmi 22:4

    Offline SusanneT

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #4 on: October 16, 2019, 07:59:26 AM »
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  • The gift of life in the womb is just that a gift from God and as women we are called to submit to God (and our husbands) not to seek to assert our will.  

    The use of NFP, may not alter the actual act, but it does follow from a wish to exert control, rather than submit.  Of course God can bless us despite our wishes and intention, but it must be fundamentally sinful to take any action, other than to submit to him, to be open to life and to accept the blessing of motherhood as often as he chooses.

    In my view no Godly husband should expect, encourage or permit his wife to do anything except submit to God. 


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #5 on: October 16, 2019, 08:56:25 AM »
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  • It is a matter of fact-- not opinion-- that the Holy Offices of Pope Pius IX (1853), Pope Leo XIII (1880), Pope Pius XI (1932), and of course Pope Pius XII, all taught that periodic continence can be lawful.  It is also a matter of fact-- not opinion-- that during that hundred year period (1853-Pius XII), theologians unanimously agreed on its intrinsic lawfulness (although they did disagree on some of the upstream principles and downstream applications).  It is also a matter of fact-- not opinion-- that theologians were never rebuked for believing it to be a lawful practice.
    .
    Given the facts, I would agree that the Church infallibly teaches that periodic continence can be lawful to use.  The alternative is to suppose that a hundred years worth of popes and theologians universally erred on the matter.  Let's keep in mind who those popes are-- not just Pius XII (as it is so often ignorantly alleged), but Pope Pius IX and Pope Leo XIII.  Pope St. Pius X, a militant pope on moral and doctrinal matters, did not censure or rebuke theologians for teaching it.  Pope Pius XI is included among these popes as well (which should give anyone who thinks that Casti Connubii denies the lawfulness of periodic continence pause, since no sooner was the ink dry on that encyclical than did the same pope explicitly confirm its lawfulness via the Holy Office).  The scope of periodic continence being taught exceeds the scope of religious liberty being taught both in time and space. 
    .
    Of course, it is one thing to simply reserve judgment on whether or not this amounts to infallible teaching; it is another thing altogether to accuse such orthodox men, over such a long period of time, as having taught grave or even heretical moral theology. 
    .
    Importantly, I should point out that an expression like "the Church teaches periodic continence" should be understood to simply mean that the Church teaches it can be lawful to use.  The Novus Ordo seems by all accounts to teach something very different, they seem to teach that it ought to be used in some general away.  The Catholic Church has never taught that, she has merely taught that there is nothing intrinsically evil about it, and regularly warned that it is something that should be taken seriously, not taught (as a method) publicly or indiscriminately, and only used when there is a commensurate reason.
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline donkath

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #6 on: October 16, 2019, 09:17:21 AM »
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  • Yes.  NFP is not intrinsically evil as is straight out contraception.   It is important to really understand that the periodic abstinence is to be seriously considered in the event of possible concupiscence.    When it was first taught it was often taught to engaged couples who wanted to delay having children until they were settled or such-like.   Like most things once you open the door a little someone gets their foot in and shoves it wide open.
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #7 on: October 16, 2019, 09:27:41 AM »
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  • Yes.  NFP is not intrinsically evil as is straight out contraception.

    That's not correct.  What is not intrinsically evil is abstaining from marital relations.  But the formal motive is what makes it evil ... and what turns mere abstinence into NFP.  Evil is evil, and sin is sin.  If someone abstains only during a certain time in order to avoid conception, the formal intent there is to subordinate the primary ends of marriage to the secondary ... which Pope Pius XI denounced as sinful in his encyclical Casti Conubii.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #8 on: October 16, 2019, 09:33:37 AM »
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  • http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.com/2019/10/multiplication-problems.html

    What are your thoughts?  He essentially claims that the church has taught NFP infallibly through the magisterium.  

    I hope to start a civil discussion

    This comes from another sedevacantist who has made the error of exaggerating the scope of infallibility.  Pius XII contradicted the teaching of Pius XI in opening the door to NFP is his infamous Allocution to midwives.  He was clearly in that speech giving a highly-speculative rambling discourse on various issue regarding medical ethics, often using phrases like "it would seem".  This was not an authoritative teaching of any kind directed to the Universal Church and therefore not even close to meeting the notes of infallibility.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #9 on: October 16, 2019, 09:36:38 AM »
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  • Quote
    That's not correct.  What is not intrinsically evil is abstaining from marital relations.  But the formal motive is what makes it evil ... and what turns mere abstinence into NFP.  Evil is evil, and sin is sin.  If someone abstains only during a certain time in order to avoid conception, the formal intent there is to subordinate the primary ends of marriage to the secondary ... which Pope Pius XI denounced as sinful in his encyclical Casti Conubii.

    Lad, it is fitting that you should bring up that argument now, since we are nearly at the one year anniversary of me having argued against you that Casti Connubii contains no such denouncement.  Has a year been long enough for you to develop a response to my criticism? :)
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #10 on: October 16, 2019, 09:42:48 AM »
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  • The use of NFP, may not alter the actual act, but it does follow from a wish to exert control, rather than submit.

    Yes, this "not intrinsically evil" argument is complete nonsense.  Killing another person is not intrinsically evil either ... since it can be done with a justifying reason (e.g. in self defense).  If it were intrinsically evil, then no reason could justify it.  Similarly, abstaining from marital relations at any given time is not intrinsically evil.  But the motive for abstinence is what informs the morality of the act.  If one abstains without sufficient cause and in doing so is failing to render the marital debt, then it can be sinful.  Similarly, if the REASON that one is abstaining is so that one can enjoy the secondary ends of marriage (and or, to be blunt, just experience pleasure) ... while at the same time attempting to exclude the primary end, then that is a clear subversion of the primary end of marriage to the secondary ... something that was explicitly condemned as sinful by Pope Pius XI in his Encyclical.  Now an Encyclical teaching authoritatively to the Universal Church far outweighs a rambling speculative speech delivered by Pius XII to a group of midwives.  For all we know, Pius XII is still in Purgatory for no other reason than the floodgates of sin he unleashed by paying lip service to NFP.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #11 on: October 16, 2019, 09:44:23 AM »
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  • Lad, it is fitting that you should bring up that argument now, since we are nearly at the one year anniversary of me having argued against you that Casti Connubii contains no such denouncement.  Has a year been long enough for you to develop a response to my criticism? :)

    What CC teaches is right there in black and white.  It is sinful to subordinate the primary end to the secondary.  If attempting to eliminate the primary while enjoying the secondary is not subordination, than nothing is.

    You falsely claimed that SUBordination is not in the original text, except that it is.  "due/necessary ordering toward the primary end".  That is what phrase means that, being the secondary end, it must be ordered to the primary end ... correctly and appropriately translated in approved translations as subordinated.  That was the big criticism of Vatican II from the conservative Fathers group, that V2 tried to make the primary and secondary ends of marriage to be co-primary ends, whereas Traditional Catholic theology has always taught that the secondary were SUBordinate to the primary.  And I explained the context of your completely out-of-context use of the Holy Office ruling.  That had nothing to do with any principled acceptance of NFP whatsoever.  In fact, the language backs up the Church's disapproval of NFP.

    I already responded to you, including one long multiple-paragraph post and several smaller posts addressing each one of your false points.  I clearly addressed how your wore purposely conflating the two separate principles outlined by Pius XI, claiming that a mere physical completion of the act in the natural way was in fact identical to having the proper motive regarding the ends of the act ... which is utterly absurd and preposterous.  You make now allowance whatsoever for the distinction between the material act and the formal motive behind it, which would be rejected by all Catholic theologians.  This merely shows your desperation in attempting to justify this sinful activity.  Please be advised that by promoting this sinful activity, you yourself will be judged by God.

    Offline donkath

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #12 on: October 16, 2019, 09:53:19 AM »
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  • That's not correct.  What is not intrinsically evil is abstaining from marital relations.  But the formal motive is what makes it evil ... and what turns mere abstinence into NFP.  Evil is evil, and sin is sin.  If someone abstains only during a certain time in order to avoid conception, the formal intent there is to subordinate the primary ends of marriage to the secondary ... which Pope Pius XI denounced as sinful in his encyclical Casti Conubii.
    What is not intrinsically evil is abstaining from marital relations.

    That is it in a nutshell if it means by doing nothing one does not sin.

    If someone abstains only during a certain time in order to avoid conception, the formal intent there is to subordinate the primary ends of marriage to the secondary

    Yep!

    Where there is serious illness on the part of the wife for example, then the husband can choose to abstain til she recovers without committing any sin of conscupiscence or because he wanted to limit the family for selfish reasons.

    Contraception on the other hand is an outright abortifacient in many cases.   NFP is not that at all.
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #13 on: October 16, 2019, 09:55:38 AM »
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  • What CC teaches is right there in black and white.  It is sinful to subordinate the primary end to the secondary.  If attempting to eliminate the primary while enjoying the secondary is not subordination, than nothing is.
    .
    Here, let me refresh your memory: https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/questions-on-sex-and-specifically-the-role-of-procreation/msg630779/#msg630779
    .
    My position is that the subordination of ends and preservation of the nature of the act are not separable, but that if the act is preserved (i.e., performed without contraceptive intervention) the ends are ipso facto subordinated.  I base this reading on the text itself: in Latin and in the Denzinger/DeFerrari translation to English, and the commentary on the encyclical provided by its drafter, Fr. Vermeersch, who supports the way that I understand it rather than the way that you understand it.
    .
    Your position-- that there is a distinction between the preservation of the act and the ordering of ends-- depends entirely on the integrity of the Pieran Press translation of Casti Connubii from the 1990s, which integrity I have directly challenged, and which challenge you have never responded to (except by merely re-asserting the apparent "obviousness" of the matter).
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Article on NFP from introiboadaltaredei
    « Reply #14 on: October 16, 2019, 10:01:35 AM »
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  • My position is that the subordination of ends and preservation of the nature of the act are not separable, but that if the act is preserved (i.e., performed without contraceptive intervention) the ends are ipso facto subordinated.

    And this is, to be blunt, one of the most absurd and ridiculous "positions" I have ever read.  You are deliberately and dishonestly conflating the formal motive of the action with the objective action itself.  This shows your desperation to justify this sinful activity, and you commit grave sin by promoting grave sin publicly.  ALL of the Catholic moral theology regarding human sɛҳuąƖity is related to the ends of marriage, the primary and the secondary, and the need for these to be in proper order.  This goes all the way back to the Church Fathers, and you're throwing that all out claiming that there's nothing to it so long as the act is performed naturally, then motives have absolutely nothing to do with it.  You're undermining all of Catholic moral theology by making this claim, and you're making yourself into a fool.  You also distort Vermeersch.  He was writing that the action is not objectively vitiated by the formal end, which is nothing more than making a distinction between principle #1 (the objective natural force of the act) and #2 (the formal intent).  EVERY moral theological approach to a given question takes into account not only the intrinsic nature of the act but also of the formal motive behind the act.  Acts can be objectively good or neutral but vitiated by intention, or objectively bad but not sinful due to intention.  So there's a distinction between the objective nature of the act and its morality due to the formal motive, which is why Vermeersch says "necessarily".

    Not to mention, you may want to think again before publicly encouraging grave sin ... since with every post you are endangering your eternal salvation.