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Author Topic: Aristotle  (Read 7957 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: Aristotle
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2018, 12:04:43 AM »
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  • I studied Protestant Guy (PG) and Smelly Butler today.  I discovered a number of problems with them.  I think they may be responsible for the rise of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ beginning in the 18th Century.  
    .
    Totally compelling. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #46 on: May 31, 2018, 12:41:04 AM »
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  • You don't criticize me for rejecting thomist morality regarding the death penalty for heresy or his advocating the reception of a usurious loan.  No, you criticize me for not placing an S and a T in front of his name.  Talk about cultus, which I do happen to agree carries the weight regarding canonization, just not in your favor.  What is stopping you from criticizing God for placing a tree branch in front of thomas' forehead on his way to end the east west schism?  O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! Would God I had died for thee, O Absalom, my son, my son!  I am not the first person to dislike scholasticism.  And, I won't be the last.  
    .
    Do you really enjoy it that much, testing the limits of tolerance around here?
    PG,

    I haven't yet addressed the little dig you threw at me, "Veganism the CI version of h0Ɩ0cαųst denial?"
     
    Yes, this is your one warning.

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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #47 on: May 31, 2018, 08:43:52 AM »
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  • :facepalm:

    You've effectively articulated nominalism.
    .
    PG *is* a nominalist, I think. Last year he made a thread exhorting the superiority of Pascal, who at very best is totally discredited. One might even argue that he's properly unorthodox.
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    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/pascals-provincial-letters/15/
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    He argued against Ligourian moralism and seemed to view Pascal's Wager as a perfectly acceptable proof of God.
    .
    With that sort of starting point, no wonder he has a disdain for scholasticism. Philosophically, this guy is a sixteenth century Protestant.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #48 on: May 31, 2018, 09:02:10 AM »
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  • shekhinah

    Second, 2 + 2 = 4.  But, 4 does not only = 2 + 2.  That is an error.
    First, are you a Protestant judaizer?  Second, we must discuss this equation before we can discuss Aristotle.  Did you mean 4 does not always = 2 + 2?  What do you mean?  Let’s examine the statement 4 does not only = 2 + 2.
    4 = 1 + 3
    4 = 2 * 2
    Is that what you mean?  How astute of you.  I’m sure Aristotle would never have thought of that.  I can’t believe you haven’t been awarded a Nobel prize yet.
    Or did you mean 4 does not always = 2 + 2?  Really?  When is 4 not equal to 2 + 2?
    Here is a riddle:
    Protestant Guy + Smelly Butler = not only 0 but also 2 

    Offline cathman7

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #49 on: May 31, 2018, 12:17:48 PM »
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  • I am not even going to bother getting source material. It reminds me of the early Humanists and of Martin Luther who absolutely abhorred Scholasticism, Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas. 


    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #50 on: May 31, 2018, 12:35:05 PM »
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  • .
    PG *is* a nominalist, I think. Last year he made a thread exhorting the superiority of Pascal, who at very best is totally discredited. One might even argue that he's properly unorthodox.
    .
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/pascals-provincial-letters/15/
    .
    He argued against Ligourian moralism and seemed to view Pascal's Wager as a perfectly acceptable proof of God.
    .
    With that sort of starting point, no wonder he has a disdain for scholasticism. Philosophically, this guy is a sixteenth century Protestant.
    No, I believe that you or someone else thrusted pascal's wager onto me as a means of misdirection for my rejection of the probabilist mentality inherent in probabiliorism and certainly ligouri's more liberal version of it, when I had mentioned nothing of pascals wager.   Pascal is important for his courage and his clarity regarding the growing problem that is collegiality, only in its 16th century form(the jesuit moralists).  

    And, I am not alone in my admiration for pascal.  Pascals letters is an eye opening work on par in my opinion with open letter by the archbishop.  Peter kreeft even considers pascal the greatest catholic apologist since st. augustine.  And, until I have personally read Jansens(a catholic bishop) original augustinus(not likely), I am not going to give the jesuit's pope benefit of doubt, which is the only argument against pascal.

    The pope condemned certain formulated propositions arguably(by pascal and others) not found in augustinus.   Because, infallibility doesn't extend into a judgement of another man's interior forum(janen's "sense" of what he meant by the words contained in his book) particularly when the man has long been dead, which is what the pope argued and enacted.  The pope did not declare and define that these five propositions were taken "word for word" from augustinus(denzinger 1098.  They were taken "in the sense understood by that same cornelius".  While pascal agreed with the popes condemnation of the propositions, Pascal and others did not agree that they are to be found even in the sense implied in jansen's work augustinus, whilst word for word was never even the matter of contention.  And, neither did pascal and others agree that the pope is as a doctrine infallible regarding implied sense, which the pope for a time argued and even tried temporarily but unsuccessfully to enforce.    

    This all begs the question; if such is the popes strongest argument(sense/internal forum), are the errors really contained in augustinus?  That particular answer is not of much importance to me.  But, I will certainly not let such doubt tarnish the legacy or hinder the influence of pascal, despite jesuit wishes.  "By ones fruits you know them".  And, in my opinion, the fruits of pascal are good.  


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #51 on: May 31, 2018, 12:44:22 PM »
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  • I am not even going to bother getting source material. It reminds me of the early Humanists and of Martin Luther who absolutely abhorred Scholasticism, Aristotle and St. Thomas Aquinas.

    It is somewhat ironic that this discussion is occurring today, the Feast of Corpus Christi, a feast closely associated with St. Thomas. 
    Quote
    St. Thomas Aquinas wrote the liturgy for Corpus Christi when Pope Urban IV added the Solemnity to the universal Church’s liturgical calendar in 1264. He provided a great sequence, one of the great poems chanted or recited before the proclamation of the Gospel. At one time the Church had many sequences for different feasts and Masses (including the Dies Irae in the Requiem Mass), but now we have only three: Victimae Paschali Laudes (Christians, To the Paschal Victim) for Easter Sunday; Veni Sancte Spiritus (Come, Holy Spirit) for Pentecost, and Lauda Sion Salvatorem (Sion, Lift Up thy Voice and Sing), for Corpus Christi:


    Sion, lift thy voice and sing:
     Praise thy Savior and thy King;
     Praise with hymns thy Shepherd true:
     Dare thy most to praise Him well;
     For He doth all praise excel;
     None can ever reach His due.

    Special theme of praise is Thine,
     That true living Bread divine,
     That life-giving flesh adored,
     Which the brethren twelve received,
     As most faithfully believed,
     At the Supper of the Lord.

    Let the chant be loud and high;
     Sweet and tranquil be the joy
     Felt to-day in every breast;
     On this festival divine
     Which recounts the origin
     Of the glorious Eucharist.
    https://catholicexchange.com/corpus-christi-our-debt-to-st-thomas-aquinas


    After Mass today we had a procession, during which we sang hymns by St. Thomas.  We returned to the church for Adoration and Benediction which involved more hymns by St. Thomas.  We owe so much to him for our understanding and worship of the Blessed Sacrament.  And St. Thomas built this gift to us on a foundation that came from Aristotle.

    St. Thomas clearly followed St. Augustine's advice on how to approach pagan philosophers.


    Quote
    CHAP. 40.--WHATEVER HAS BEEN RIGHTLY SAID BY THE HEATHEN, WE MUST APPROPRIATE TO OUR USES.
    60. Moreover, if those who are called philosophers, and especially the Platonists, have said aught that is true and in harmony with our faith, we are not only not to shrink from it, but to claim it for our own use from those who have unlawful possession of it. For, as the Egyptians had not only the idols and heavy burdens which the people of Israel hated and fled from, but also vessels and ornaments of gold and silver, and garments, which the same people when going out of Egypt appropriated to themselves, designing them for a better use, not doing this on their own authority, but by the command of God, the Egyptians themselves, in their ignorance, providing them with things which they themselves were not making a good use of;(1) in the same way all branches of heathen learning have not only false and superstitious fancies and heavy burdens of unnecessary toil, which every one of us, when going out under the leadership of Christ from the fellowship of the heathen, ought to abhor and avoid; but they contain also liberal instruction which is better adapted to the use of the truth, and some most excellent precepts of morality; and some truths in regard even to the worship of the One God are found among them. Now these are, so to speak, their gold and silver, which they did not create themselves, but dug out of the mines of God's providence which are everywhere scattered abroad, and are perversely and unlawfully prostituting to the worship of devils. These, therefore, the Christian, when he separates himself in spirit from the miserable fellowship of these men, ought to take away from them, and to devote to their proper use in preaching the gospel. Their garments, also,--that is, human institutions such as are adapted to that intercourse with men which is indispensable in this life,--we must take and turn to a Christian use.
    St. Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, Book II, Ch. 40
    https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/mel/auggoldegypt.html

    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #52 on: May 31, 2018, 12:50:29 PM »
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  • Only when he agreed with him. St. Thomas refers to Aristotle by name when he disagrees with him.
    Learn a lesson from the fig tree.  Maybe where I do not agree with aquinas, I will do the same.  How does daedalus sound?  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #53 on: May 31, 2018, 12:53:21 PM »
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  • You don't criticize me for rejecting thomist morality regarding the death penalty for heresy or his advocating the reception of a usurious loan.

    People are entitled to disagree with St. Thomas (he was not infallible), but you hold him in contempt, as you do with St. Louis de Montfort.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #54 on: May 31, 2018, 12:55:09 PM »
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  • Philosophically, this guy is a sixteenth century Protestant.

    Yes, that would be my take on him as well.

    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #55 on: May 31, 2018, 01:05:14 PM »
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  • Saint Thomas referred to Aristotle as THE Philosopher. 
    He also referred to peter lombard as THE Master.  It reminds me of the theo culture found among jews.  Future Violinist master Perlman cannot stop telling himself silently "I am talking to God" while on the phone with past violinist master heifetz.


    Offline cathman7

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #56 on: May 31, 2018, 01:27:54 PM »
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  • From Feser's book on Aquinas...

    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #57 on: May 31, 2018, 01:27:59 PM »
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  • Philosophically, this guy is a sixteenth century Protestant.
    The superior forms the inferior.  Isn't "bloody protestant" just another name for +Williamson?  According to his english sarcasm it is.  

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #58 on: May 31, 2018, 01:29:26 PM »
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  • That you see no problem with the designation speaks for itself.
    .
    Although you don't realize or believe it, your philosophical ideas are necessary before we reach the mess we're in today.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline cathman7

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #59 on: May 31, 2018, 01:31:09 PM »
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  • People are entitled to disagree with St. Thomas (he was not infallible), but you hold him in contempt, as you do with St. Louis de Montfort.
    Exactly. The Catholic Church then was foolish for looking to St. Thomas as a guide for metaphysics and theology. It doesn't necessarily mean we can't disagree with some of his conclusions but there is a reason he is called the "Common Doctor".